101st Airborne Unit Receives Next Generation Squad Weapons

[LRRPF52]

One of my former Recon Team Leaders from way back in the day (1990s) went to Army JSOC as an Operator, is now dealing with acquisitions for XM7, and said it’s a total abortion:

You need the can on the end of it, or else you WILL suffer hearing loss. Exit pressure is substantial.

Accuracy is 2-4 MOA, which makes no sense if it’s to be used in a DM capacity. 3 MOA at 600yds is 18”, 4 MOA at 600yds is 24”, so you could do everything right even with the XM157 optic and still not make any hits. It’s one of the reasons why the XM157 was demonstrated by YouTubers on an Hk MR762A1 and not an XM7.

Speaking of the optic, the ballistics computer is failing within 1000 rounds of fire due to resonant shock harmonics propagating through the system and rattling the electronics to hell. Same problem that was on the SCAR and SR25s for SOPMOD ancillary electro-optical aiming devices until they potted them, re-oriented the battery on the Eotech, ruggedized the PEQ-15 circuitboard, and clip-on NODs. They started off with those techniques in the XM157 and it still fails.

The buttstock mounting and folding mechanism is failing. Armorers aren’t torquing down the screws and they loosen, which when combined with the folding feature makes them fail.

When firing blanks, the BFA configuration requires a new bolt carrier group.

Weight and recoil are still issues that don’t seem to have any solutions, which is baked into the cake when the cartridge is in the form factor of a super-high pressure 270-08.

Bare weapon weight isn’t that bad when I handled it. It’s surprisingly-light for an external op-rod driven large frame carbine, but once you configure it with all your accessories and necessary systems, it turns into a real pig with all the wight up-front.

The cartridge set-up allows for interesting velocities though. There’s a guy who buys the spent cases in bulk, necks them up or down for .308 and 6.5CM, and is smoking 22” bolt gun velocities out of 16” barrels in an AR-10 format.

The XM250 lights the suppressors on fire during sustained rates of fire, and there is no quick barrel change system.

This is an embarrassment.

[rickt300]

Well its sad that it is going this way. I told you so doesn't help all the guys that are going to have to field them. I had a "it might work as a DM rifle" thought. I figured the SAW version would fall flat on its face.

[LRRPF52]

I had high hopes for the XM250 since the SAW is about 6-9lbs heavier than it needs to be.

They made the XM250 lighter itself, but the ammo is of course much heavier, bulkier, with significantly-more chamber pressure.

You can’t carry as much of it and there’s no way to quick-change the barrel in the field.

For SAWs, we typically carried 700-900rds, with other Squad members carrying a 200rd drum or extra 100rd nutsacks.

When I was a SAW gunner, I carried a 100rd nutsack on the gun, 4x 100rd nutsacks on my LCE or LBV in SAW pouches, and at least 2x 200rd drums in my assault pack. A lot of units at the time made it SOP for SAW Gunners to carry an extra 200rd drum in their butt pack.

I modified an LBV back when we used those with two larger pouches on the chest panels so I could do any duty position, without needing any other special load bearing equipment. You could carry linked 7.62 galore, SAW drums, M203 rounds, NODs, 18x 5.56 mags, and still have room for binos if you were an AG, or the MELIOS LRF in LRS or Battalion Recon. This one had a large SAW/Satchel pouch on the right side I used from the Eagle Harris Assault Vest. It fit the MELIOS, 7x AK mags, 250rds linked 7.62, a 200rd SAW drum, very useful.



82nd still used LCE because of the parachute harness, so here it is with 2x modified SAW pouches. That was when we had the Para-SAW.



That was pre-Interceptor Body Armor, which changed everything. We exchanged load-carrying capacity for heavy armor that threw everything out of whack in terms of being able to carry enough ammo and essentials, while also reducing mobility.

[rickt300]

I remember my father being issued an M16. He loved it then the ammo problems became apparent. He really liked the M16A1 after the ammo issue was solved. I remember him coming home one night while we were stationed on Okinawa, saying that they were testing a belt fed M16 version that fed from a backpack. The design just wasn't up to it. He retired long before the 249 was born.

[Double Naught Spy]

I felt it was a step in the wrong direction from the start. A waste of money.

If you can recall back to 7 or 8 years ago, the goals were quite aggressive to being to the point of unrealistic. Remember when this rifle would have bullets that would far exceed anything we have today? https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/...d-weapons.html If I recall correctly, the goal was for a 125 gr. 6.8 bullet at 3500 fps from a 16' barrel with new cased lighter weight ammo. Well, that didn't happen and even if it did, what would barrel life look like?

They have since made numerous goals more realistic, but with that came removing many of the advantages. So we have a bigger, heavier rifle that does more things, and carries less ammo, not at amazing velocities, but as velocities more typical of what we have today.

I am still not sure why we needed new everything (rifle format, caliber, ammo cases, suppressors, and optics).

[rickt300]

Here is an interesting video on the civilian version. The mag issue alone makes it a no go for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9uHCM2tzyE

[LRRPF52]

Here’s a video with former Navy JSOC operators who have gotten jacked on PEDs, still not able to manage the recoil:

And it still had malfunctions.

[cory]

JSOC guys are really the wrong ones to evaluate the need and requirements of a new round. There's a big difference between spec op guys on target who have a CAT/MAP to set the perimeter, multiple sniper teams on overwatch, and artillery and air support with their finger on the trigger versus a platoon of infantry grunts out on a FOB for months at a time that occasionally have artillery or air support available when the spec ops guys aren't on target.

All that being said, I'm not here to defend the epic cluster **** that is the M7. I think their evaluation of the weapon system after running it on their range was spot on. This thing was destined for failure as soon as they approved a 70ksi+ round, you can't cheat physics. Whoever authored and approved that requirement should be publicly flogged.

[LRRPF52]

As far as I know, JSOC had no real involvement with the specification of the 6.8x51 and XM7. That was a big Army brainchild conceived by people who clearly haven’t studied the past 100 years of small arms history in conflict. I know JSOC guys who retired and ended up involved with acquisition of it, and they say it’s a colossal abortion, naming off all the deficiencies I had mentioned in post #16.

At least Army JSOC is composed of mostly 11Bs with enough former 0311s and 0321s, so they have a very high level of awareness of what the 11B/0311 really needs. They are anything but detached from that, and have better insights into what the conventional Army really should have than any senior 11B leaders I’ve seen, unless they were from The Unit doing their SGM time before going back to JSOC or somewhere else in SOF.

Shooting is shooting, and logistics is logistics. Because of the volume of shooting JSOC does across all of the weapons systems you commonly find within the Infantry, they are dramatically more-familiar with the DODIC and understanding both top-down and bottom-up deployment logistics, marksmanship training, coaching, mentoring, and developing leaders across the duty positions.

Navy JSOC not so much. They tend to be far more insular and only recruit from a limited pool of guys within the regular SEAL Teams, who are still stuck in their own habits and TTPs.

The funny thing with that video is that SIG sponsors those guys from GBRS, and they still couldn’t spin it to make it look good for sales. You can buy these things on the civilian market, the semi auto versions.

[grayfox]

I'll add one small point from the Navy Jsoc guys video, not having been in that theater (our "guns" were 6 ft diameter and range 2500+ miles, lol!), I notice that the first drill they did was walk and shoot, fire and maneuver... yet the big selling point of the rifle is distance+armor piercing. Well, from my limited experience you don't usually do 500-800 yd shots as a walk/maneuver and fire; those shots are set up, range, and fire while prone or sitting or tripod or bench or whatever - stationary. If I have that right, then it follows that its big selling point is a big self-casualty-maker for people using it in those closer quarters, fire/maneuver situations. More fatigue, more awkward in less optimal setups, slower swing speed, less accuracy, harder followup shots. Not to mention more over-penetration in a room of mixed baddies/civilians-hostages or etc. Seems like its setting up lots more casualties than successes.
However not the expert in this, freely admitted.

[LRRPF52]

One of the fundamentally-flawed premises of the big Army careerist thinkers within the Infantry is thinking the Infantry has some kind of important role in FSCA (Full-Scale Combat Operations) or Multi-Domain Operations (the new buzzwords). They look at Ukraine and say, “See, trench-clearing!” Only, the US doesn’t fight wars like that. Ukraine would have never happened with US Forces involved, as none of the armored columns would have passed friendly lines into their assigned areas of attack.

None of the threat air would have lasted, and their bases would have been pummeled with cratering munitions, ammo storage all attrited with tons of secondaries, taxiways and tarmacs cratered, parked aircraft turned into fireballs, and the Black Sea Fleet used for target practice. The armored columns would be turned to highway-of-death ordeals reminiscent of ODS, only in their own backyards.

Things would be over very quickly. In the US, light Infantry only really play a role in COIN and LIC. In MDO, Mechanized Infantry are an afterthought who roll in to sift through the rubble after layers upon layers of echelons of fire. It doesn’t matter what rifle or carbine they are issued because their main weapons are assigned and pre-planned CAS, precision-guided artillery, TOWs, organic indirect fire, 25mm main guns, 50 BMG, 7.62 belt-feds, then the dismounts spill out to do final clearing. I would argue for an even shorter individual weapon for Mech Infantry in that scheme, such as 11.5” or 10.5” carbines suppressed. They don’t need uber armor-piercing wunderfaffen, conceived by fat and incompetent generals, pushing their ideas to contractors.

[montana]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcYCsNuTU2c&t=5s

[rickt300]

One of the fundamentally-flawed premises of the big Army careerist thinkers within the Infantry is thinking the Infantry has some kind of important role in FSCA (Full-Scale Combat Operations) or Multi-Domain Operations (the new buzzwords). They look at Ukraine and say, “See, trench-clearing!” Only, the US doesn’t fight wars like that. Ukraine would have never happened with US Forces involved, as none of the armored columns would have passed friendly lines into their assigned areas of attack.

None of the threat air would have lasted, and their bases would have been pummeled with cratering munitions, ammo storage all attrited with tons of secondaries, taxiways and tarmacs cratered, parked aircraft turned into fireballs, and the Black Sea Fleet used for target practice. The armored columns would be turned to highway-of-death ordeals reminiscent of ODS, only in their own backyards.

Things would be over very quickly. In the US, light Infantry only really play a role in COIN and LIC. In MDO, Mechanized Infantry are an afterthought who roll in to sift through the rubble after layers upon layers of echelons of fire. It doesn’t matter what rifle or carbine they are issued because their main weapons are assigned and pre-planned CAS, precision-guided artillery, TOWs, organic indirect fire, 25mm main guns, 50 BMG, 7.62 belt-feds, then the dismounts spill out to do final clearing. I would argue for an even shorter individual weapon for Mech Infantry in that scheme, such as 11.5” or 10.5” carbines suppressed. They don’t need uber armor-piercing wunderfaffen, conceived by fat and incompetent generals, pushing their ideas to contractors.

Hah! Bucking for a court Marshall. I hope and pray you are mistaken. However after watching Biden ignore everything of importance for four years.........

[LRRPF52]

Imagine being a Grenadier and having to carry your M320 40mm GL, combat load of 40mm rounds, a 12-14lb XM7, and its basic load.

It’s a non-starter.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Thanks for the video. Demonstrates just one aspect of the sad reality of that new weapon: poor shootability. Not even getting into logistics and basic load and chamber pressure vs parts life.