PDWs...and other small arms.

[LR1955]

"The fastest reload is the transition to secondary weapon system."

You run into a malfunction or complete stoppage, it is nice to have a secondary weapon system like a carry pistol to rely upon until you can hunker down behind cover and figure out what is happening with your rifle.

AH:

I would debate that statement. The last time I did one of these drills, the procedure was to do a visual inspection at a minimum before swinging the carbine around all the other crap you are carrying in order to get to your pistol. The intent was to make sure that you had a problem before going for a pistol. And before swinging it, we tried to make it safe. Not all of the time did the carbine cooperate and clear some bit of gear, which meant you had to clear it from what ever it was stuck on and swing it around again. Then you had to draw, sometimes charge, and engage. Took way less time to change a magazine.

Best thing is to maintain your primary weapon.

LR55

[cory]

AH:

I would debate that statement. The last time I did one of these drills, the procedure was to do a visual inspection at a minimum before swinging the carbine around all the other crap you are carrying in order to get to your pistol. The intent was to make sure that you had a problem before going for a pistol. And before swinging it, we tried to make it safe. Not all of the time did the carbine cooperate and clear some bit of gear, which meant you had to clear it from what ever it was stuck on and swing it around again. Then you had to draw, sometimes charge, and engage. Took way less time to change a magazine.

Best thing is to maintain your primary weapon.

LR55

Sounds like you were rocking an old school 3 point sling. This is were the one point sling comes in handy. You essentially just let the rifle hang while you dispose of the target.

If you have time to do a visual check, safe the rifle, and swing it behind you, you have time to get to cover.

[A5BLASTER]

I have no military background and as such don't really have the knowledge to commit on the subject at hand but I must say there seems to be a member posting to this tread that has played to much Call of Duty on his playstation.

I mean really dude a knife in a gun fight that's just stupid.

[LR1955]

Sounds like you were rocking an old school 3 point sling. This is were the one point sling comes in handy. You essentially just let the rifle hang while you dispose of the target.

If you have time to do a visual check, safe the rifle, and swing it behind you, you have time to get to cover.

Yo Cory:

Yes -- 3 point sling. This procedure was primarily for CQB. One point sling had its drawbacks too -- like flapping around and not quite fitting right so when they hung down, the barrel barely cleared the ground, or worse. Won't debate slings because that is like debating religion. I appreciate the advantages that both offer. Never could find one that I really liked.

However I will say that no matter the sling, it is still easier and faster to swap out mags than to go through this drill.

LR55

[LR1955]

I have no military background and as such don't really have the knowledge to commit on the subject at hand but I must say there seems to be a member posting to this tread that has played to much Call of Duty on his playstation.

I mean really dude a knife in a gun fight that's just stupid.

A5:

Do they have tomahawks in that play station thing? I have a couple of 'hatchets' as Robert Rogers would say, but never did get a chance to 'Let em have it, then jump up and finish them off' with any of them. They are good tools if you need to split kindling and can be a life saver if caught outdoors.

LR55

[A5BLASTER]

Lol I will have to ask my sons if they have them in that game.

I do carry a hatchet in my backpack that has come in handy for cutting off deer legs and snake heads.

On a serious note, I do carry knife as a self defense tool when I don't have my pistol but then again I'm not in a full combat role and enviroment.

[ahillock]

AH:

I would debate that statement. The last time I did one of these drills, the procedure was to do a visual inspection at a minimum before swinging the carbine around all the other crap you are carrying in order to get to your pistol. The intent was to make sure that you had a problem before going for a pistol. And before swinging it, we tried to make it safe. Not all of the time did the carbine cooperate and clear some bit of gear, which meant you had to clear it from what ever it was stuck on and swing it around again. Then you had to draw, sometimes charge, and engage. Took way less time to change a magazine.

Best thing is to maintain your primary weapon.

LR55

I agree about maintaining your primary weapon, but sometimes shit happens for whatever reason even with a well maintained (the best maintained) rifle. I am not an operator and not in the military. But I have done some 2 gun training and from my experience switching to my service pistol is much quicker than reloading. This is only for CQC. Not talking about engaging a target at a distance where a pistol use is idiotic. But anything within 30-50 yards, I have found that I am quicker transitioning to my sidearm than reloading my rifle. Every guy that I have been around during a timed event, finds that transitioning to their sidearm is quicker than reloading their rifle.

Again, this is for CQC. Not talking about engagement distances outside the logical use of a handgun cartridge.

[ahillock]

Note: I think this discussion of whether a sidearm is useful or needed for a soldier needs to be framed in regards to environment and type of engagement to be seen. If everything is going to be from a distance and you are surrounded by platoon of guys, maybe your need isn't as high. But for more specialized and more trained (and valuable to the military based on amount they have invested in you) like a SF soldier, going into battle without a sidearm doesn't make much sense.

[LR1955]

I agree about maintaining your primary weapon, but sometimes shit happens for whatever reason even with a well maintained (the best maintained) rifle. I am not an operator and not in the military. But I have done some 2 gun training and from my experience switching to my service pistol is much quicker than reloading. This is only for CQC. Not talking about engaging a target at a distance where a pistol use is idiotic. But anything within 30-50 yards, I have found that I am quicker transitioning to my sidearm than reloading my rifle. Every guy that I have been around during a timed event, finds that transitioning to their sidearm is quicker than reloading their rifle.

Again, this is for CQC. Not talking about engagement distances outside the logical use of a handgun cartridge.

AH:

Roger but there is a bit of a difference between two or three gun and the Mil. Like body armor with side plates plus a bunch of stuff you hang off of your kit. Helmets, eye pro, elbow pro, knee pro, rack of some sort, radios, et. al.
Also holsters that are easier than the old flap holsters but no where near a speed holster. And with all the kit being worn, the holsters tend to be leg holsters which means you got to get the carbine out of the way and maybe even contort to get to the pistol. BTW -- with all the kit a guy is wearing he may not be able to see the holster if he needs to. For CQB -- it is about the only thing a guy can do but it is way easier and faster to change a mag when a guy is wearing all the stuff they wear today. And with CQB it is a huge sin to run dry. Very bad kaa-kaa. If I were scoring 2 or 3 gun there would be big penalties for a malfunction of the primary weapon and a bigger penalty for letting it run dry.

There are doctrinal reasons why SF guys carry pistols. It involves, almost primarily, CQB. It is a good idea, don't get me wrong. But it isn't because of the money invested in training a SF guy.

LR55

[cory]

As ridiculously grandstanding as this statement is going to sounds, I'm going to make the statement because it has merit here. I could do a mag change faster than anyone in my platoon and anyone I went to SOI (Charlie Company Fall '05) with (while retaining the empty mag). I'm telling you switching to a pistol is quicker and much more reliable. We only ever did such trivial competitions in static environments. Now try the same drill in a dynamic environment where some one is coming at you, someone has you in their sights, you need to move etc and a lot can go wrong during a mag change (e.g. dropped mag, missed the mag well, etc...).

Now if I drop my carbine down the front of my chest I can hold it in place with my left hand while I grab my pistol rotate it and get rounds on target from the hip. I probably won't hit them, but it'll likely buy me time to get the pistol up in front of my face to get sights on target.

If you don't have your gear set up accordingly, you're going to have problems. You should have trained to do this and set your gear up in a conducive manner.

Now this is always situation ally dependent. If you can take cover of course changing your mag is the better option.

[ahillock]

AH:

Roger but there is a bit of a difference between two or three gun and the Mil. Like body armor with side plates plus a bunch of stuff you hang off of your kit. Helmets, eye pro, elbow pro, knee pro, rack of some sort, radios, et. al.
Also holsters that are easier than the old flap holsters but no where near a speed holster. And with all the kit being worn, the holsters tend to be leg holsters which means you got to get the carbine out of the way and maybe even contort to get to the pistol. BTW -- with all the kit a guy is wearing he may not be able to see the holster if he needs to. For CQB -- it is about the only thing a guy can do but it is way easier and faster to change a mag when a guy is wearing all the stuff they wear today. And with CQB it is a huge sin to run dry. Very bad kaa-kaa. If I were scoring 2 or 3 gun there would be big penalties for a malfunction of the primary weapon and a bigger penalty for letting it run dry.

There are doctrinal reasons why SF guys carry pistols. It involves, almost primarily, CQB. It is a good idea, don't get me wrong. But it isn't because of the money invested in training a SF guy.

LR55

SF guys do carry for CQC, but there are plenty of Marines and Army units, as noted previously, that are not issued a side arm. Part of the issue is definitely the money invested in SF guys. They receive the best equipment for a reason, they have monetary value to the military beyond what they are capable of but also what has been invested into them. A sidearm can make or break the difference between whether you come home or not, or even successfully complete a mission. Not to mention the monetary issues of supplying a sidearm to every GI Joe in the military vs. providing them to just the SF guys and specialized units. To say a side arm is not useful, just isn't true.

There is no question in a CQC situation, where you are actively being engaged + you are actively engaging the target, that "The fastest reload is the transition to secondary weapon system." If you don't trust this, do some training with a timer or even watch some of the pros on YouTube to see the time difference in what they can do with a reload of their rifle vs. transitioning to their side arm. When you are actively engaged in a firefight, fractions of seconds matter. If you are in handgun range and are being fired at, you don't have time to reload your rifle and not switch to your handgun that is already loaded and ready to go. That is idiotic.

This issue doesn't even get into gross motor skill vs. fine motor skill in a reload situation under stress as "cory" alluded to above me. In a fight situation with your adrenaline and other stress hormones going through your body, you lose those fine motor skills that makes a reload of your rifle more difficult to accomplish. I have fortunately never been in a gun fight and hope that I never am, but from guys I have trained with and learned from, your fine motor skills go out the window in a situation like this. As a result, your gross motor skill of picking up a sidearm that is already loaded with one in the chamber and safety off is much easier to use than having to figure out if your rifle went dry (not the easiest thing to keep track of in a gun fight) or if it has a mechanical issue + do all the manipulation needed to reload. Transitioning to your handgun is always easiest. This doesn't even take into account if it is at night with poor visibility and you can't tell immediately if you have a mechanical issue with your rifle or just went empty.

For a CQC environment where you are within handgun combat range, transition to a handgun is always the quickest reload.

Now if the engagement distance is 200-600 yards, then yes I agree 100%, reload or check mechanical issue with rifle is the best option.

[LRRPF52]

LR1955 is coming from a perspective where the units he was in were doing SOT or SFARTAETC (8 week SF CQB course) and lots of Group-level CQB training exceed what regular units will ever come near in a career, and they will easily exceed the experience of a conventional unit soldier's 20 year career in a week or two. 500 rounds per day per gun (carbine and pistol) are the baseline, and now that SFAUCC I and II are in place at the Group level, you commonly see shooting schedules with the carbines that reach 1000 rounds per day.

That's just the individual-level CQM before going into Team-level CQB, week-after-week, month-after-month, year-after-year.

One particular day that I did a CQM range with a Team from 3rd Group's newly formed CIF, I literally shot 1100 rounds through my M4 in about 4 hours, and every single round was within the vital zones on FBI B7 targets that we kept spray adhesive attaching to the target backers. We only were shooting in the latter half of the day, not a full day.

The point is that we're talking about career soldiers who put most of the military BS aside and focus on nothing but training, then deploying, with and average of 3-4 marriages in the wake as symptoms of the OPTEMPO.

Conventional units never get to the range even a fraction of that, which is one of the reasons why the Army refused to accept most of the SOCOM requests for PIP on the M4, because they rarely shoot their M4s, whereas armorers/18Bs in SF would be replacing bolts and locking blocks by the bucket load.

As far as transitioning to pistol goes, the current trend in SOCOM and other units above that has gone away from the drop leg holsters, and more to war belt mounting of the holster for sidearms on the few mission profiles that call for it.



What does this have to do with PDWs? I'm not even sure at this point.

I just wanted to point that out before any more took the pedestal of lecturing to someone who has probably spent more time in a week doing the things we're talking about, than they likely have done in 20 year careers even. The experience level shows when you take an entry-level soldier against someone who has been blasting his whole adult life. A lot of the lessons you guys are trying to explain were learned by your audience before many of the current generation were even born, then built upon over seasons of professional, real-world experience covering decades.

[ahillock]

And with all the kit being worn, the holsters tend to be leg holsters which means you got to get the carbine out of the way and maybe even contort to get to the pistol. BTW -- with all the kit a guy is wearing he may not be able to see the holster if he needs to.

I forgot, as cory noted, if you don't like a single point sling for whatever reason, you can do a very quick transition from rifle to sidearm with a two point sling. LAV teaches this extensively in his advanced courses. It is very quick and does not require any fine motor skills.

https://youtu.be/w0p7VmUT5-s

[LRRPF52]

I forgot, as cory noted, if you don't like a single point sling for whatever reason, you can do a very quick transition from rifle to sidearm with a two point sling. LAV teaches this extensively in his advanced courses. It is very quick and does not require any fine motor skills.

https://youtu.be/w0p7VmUT5-s

Single point slings are a non-starter for most scenarios, other than plainclothes vehicle-born operations, and the modern hybrid slings that can adapt from single point to 2-point are a better solution.

LR1955 has been doing this type of work for decades, so I would consider that before taking the position of trying to instruct him on CQM.

He was in 1st and 10th Special Forces Groups over a career, to include serving as OIC over shoot-specific committees, in addition to being a competitive shooter since the 1970s, not just some officer that got assigned a duty for 2 years who has no passion or experience in the subject matter like the regular Army specializes in.

[ahillock]

I just wanted to point that out before any more took the pedestal of lecturing to someone who has probably spent more time in a week doing the things we're talking about, than they likely have done in 20 year careers even. The experience level shows when you take an entry-level soldier against someone who has been blasting his whole adult life. A lot of the lessons you guys are trying to explain were learned by your audience before many of the current generation were even born, then built upon over seasons of professional, real-world experience covering decades.

No need to lecture to those that have a different view point and experience. To dismiss dissenting viewpoints by making a general statement about how much "more" experience someone has than another in an attempt to quite the differing opinion, never works well for a discussion forum. That is not the kind of attitude a discussion forum should ever take where fellow members try to learn from each other. My $0.02.