Grendel as a Universal Infantry Cartridge

[stanc]

I don't see what would be wrong with putting a short boat tail on this, like the M193 55gr. Either way, that would be a great assault rifle load, especially if it was screaming at 2900fps. The longer we can extend the 2600fps lead shower threshold, the better. This would mean a thin jacket, and the cannelure helps with jacket separation in conventional projectiles. Put a penetrator buried in the core of the bullet, with a concealed hollow-point, and now we're talking multi-purpose.

You've used the "lead shower" phrase in other threads, and I always thought you were talking about the ability to hit the target with 5.56 more rapidly than with a higher-recoil round like 6.5 Grendel.

It looks like you actually mean the ability of the projectile to break up into multiple fragments?

[LRRPF52]

Not only break apart, but the lead core blows apart into a shower of dust. I think the term "lead shower" comes from the x-rays of 5.56 injuries that have been documented.

I prefer actual x-ray photos, not artist drawings, although the drawings you referenced basically represent what happens:





The tissue on guys I've seen who were shot with 5.56 looked like someone took an M80, buried it under their muscles surgically, then detonated it. Explosive hamburger...

The one who survived that was shot in the arm had basically Titanium rods and screws to replace the ulna and radius, which were fragmented so badly that only the heads, styloid processes, and olecranon were left...the main shafts of the bones had been fragmented into a bunch of small crumbs, like Captain Crunch cereal.

[stanc]

Not only break apart, but the lead core blows apart into a shower of dust. I think the term "lead shower" comes from the x-rays of 5.56 injuries that have been documented.

I prefer actual x-ray photos, not artist drawings, although the drawings you referenced basically represent what happens...

Judging by those pics, "lead shower" is a very apt description.

But it also brings up another point: One of your objections to replacing 5.56 NATO with 6.5 Grendel in carbines is that with a muzzle velocity of circa 2600 fps, there won't be such a "lead shower" beyond muzzle contact distance.

The trouble is, M855 is being phased out, replaced by M855A1. Since there is no lead in the M855A1 bullet, it cannot produce such a shower of tiny particles. At most there will be only a few large pieces -- the steel tip, copper slug, and jacket.

Even if a 6.5 M855A1-type bullet doesn't fragment, the greater mass and size may compensate. Plus, UK and European armies use non-fragmenting 5.56 bullets, so going to a non-fragmenting 6.5 round seems like it could only improve terminal performance for them.

[LRRPF52]

Judging by those pics, "lead shower" is a very apt description.

But it also brings up another point: One of your objections to replacing 5.56 NATO with 6.5 Grendel in carbines is that with a muzzle velocity of circa 2600 fps, there won't be such a "lead shower" beyond muzzle contact distance.

The trouble is, M855 is being phased out, replaced by M855A1. Since there is no lead in the M855A1 bullet, it cannot produce such a shower of tiny particles. At most there will be only a few large pieces -- the steel tip, copper slug, and jacket.

Even if a 6.5 M855A1-type bullet doesn't fragment, the greater mass and size may compensate. Plus, UK and European armies use non-fragmenting 5.56 bullets, so going to a non-fragmenting 6.5 round seems like it could only improve terminal performance for them.

Which is why I like M193 so much, but still like to have the penetrating ability of Green Tip at times. If it was up to me, carbines would have a 1/9 or looser twist with M193, but still be able to stabilize 62gr M855...but then you lose the ability to spin 77gr enough for distance work with anything slower than 1/8.

Unless things have changed, I thought our NATO partners were using M855, although with less power in the British and French loadings due to the limitations of the L85's op-rod system, and the non gas-operated FAMAS, which shreds brass cases like an ADHD child on a midnight Halloween binge through his pillowcase full of legal crack.

Right now, the M4/M855 combo fills a huge set of shoes that will take a comprehensive and exhaustive approach to replace AND provide real benefits to dismounted infantrymen and actual combat arms personnel. It is no easy task to do.

[stanc]

Unless things have changed, I thought our NATO partners were using M855...

Like the US, they copied the original SS109 bullet.

But, also like the US, the UK (and, IIRC, some other countries) made changes to the basic design.

I don't remember where I read it (Maybe on Tony Williams' site?), but my info is that the first version of SS109 used by the Brits fragmented like M855, so it was redesigned with a thicker jacket specifically to prevent fragmentation.

Also, the Swiss company RUAG currently markets an unleaded version of SS109 which is advertised as non-fragmenting.

IIRC, the Swedish SS109 is also reportedly non-fragmenting.

[LRRPF52]

Like the US, they copied the original SS109 bullet.

But, also like the US, the UK (and, IIRC, some other countries) made changes to the basic design.

I don't remember where I read it (Maybe on Tony Williams' site?), but my info is that the first version of SS109 used by the Brits fragmented like M855, so it was redesigned with a thicker jacket specifically to prevent fragmentation.

Also, the Swiss company RUAG currently markets an unleaded version of SS109 which is advertised as non-fragmenting.

IIRC, the Swedish SS109 is also reportedly non-fragmenting.

Yeah, I read on D. Water's 5.56 timeline that the Swedes felt that the M193 and 1/12 rifling was inhumane, so they apparently had some input into driving the direction of the NATO /7 twist for the 5.56 NATO 62 gr M855 to be 1/7 so that it would fragment less, but thin jackets help it do it anyway in the US loadings. Since Sweden is not even a part of NATO, and is one of the most non-combative nations now, I don't see why anyone would take any input from them on small arms wound ballistics, although they are the go-to guys for rockets, steel, artillery pieces, and other excellent war material they sell to us heathens, while assuming an air of moral superiority in the global scheme. I have close relations with Sweden, to include ancestry and living relatives, so I reserve the right to place criticism where it is due with them, especially from my Finnish side...lots of rivalry there.

You are fighting in the opposite direction with people who are looking for humane small arms cartridges when dealing with that mindset. I want the bullet to come apart, since the steel penetrator is for hard targets anyway. Thin jackets and 2600+ fps does the job fine.

[stanc]

Yeah, I read on D. Water's 5.56 timeline that the Swedes felt that the M193 and 1/12 rifling was inhumane, so they apparently had some input into driving the direction of the NATO /7 twist for the 5.56 NATO 62 gr M855 to be 1/7 so that it would fragment less...

I'm pretty sure the Swedes had nothing to do with the choice of 1:7 twist. That was dictated by the requirement to stabilize the very long L110/M856 Tracer bullet.

[LRRPF52]

I'm pretty sure the Swedes had nothing to do with the choice of 1:7 twist. That was dictated by the requirement to stabilize the very long L110/M856 Tracer bullet.

I've always understood that as well, but there seems to have been consideration for a 1/9 rifling for the rifles.

[stanc]

I've always understood that as well, but there seems to have been consideration for a 1/9 rifling for the rifles.

IIRC, 1:9 was considered for rifles, since that twist is adequate to stabilize 62gr M855, while also providing better accuracy (than 1:7) with 55gr M193.

However, the decision makers were apparently knowledgeable enough to realize that small unit leaders and others often use tracer ammo for signalling, fire direction, etc, and so chose the 1:7 twist with that in mind. Good thing, too, as it enabled bullets like the 77gr MatchKing to be used in carbines and rifles.

[stanc]

Right now, the M4/M855 combo fills a huge set of shoes that will take a comprehensive and exhaustive approach to replace AND provide real benefits to dismounted infantrymen and actual combat arms personnel. It is no easy task to do.

For sure. I wish we had test data to compare 5.56 M855A1 with the same type of bullet in 6.5 Grendel. Unfortunately, published test info on 5.56 M855A1 is negligible, and the 6.5 version is apparently (and understandably) a "back burner" project with AA at present. It may be years before we can get anything close to a definitive comparison and evaluation.

[BluntForceTrauma]

click here.

John

[stanc]

Great find, John! Excellent article. Good info.

(And provides answers to all the critics of the M855A1 program.)

[bwaites]

Warning Warning Warning!

Graphic Content!

For those who wish to see an actual 5.56 wound.

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0

Looks like it will do the job to me. The femur was supposedly NOT struck, the fracture occurred secondary to the shock wave.

[LRRPF52]

When the 5.56 was introduced into South Vietnam with ARPA's Project AGILE, they had US Advisers follow along ARVN units who were destined for enemy contact. They were able to retrieve several bodies, and the wound effects were much different than any high power rifle wounds seen before.

There were casualties who were shot in the chest, and pink frothy foam projectile-vomited out of their mouths. Upon autopsy examination, it was discovered that all their internal organs around the entrance had been jellied basically in an instant. Heart & lungs were blown to unrecognizable structures.

As their buddies looked left and right in horror, they broke contact, and one was hit in the right buttocks. His left glutius violently came apart, and he died instantly from what would normally be a flesh wound.

That was with 55gr FMJ's and light jackets going 3200 fps barely stabilized past 250yds with 1/14" rifling in the Colt Model 601.

The link Bill referenced above shows a lucky guy, considering what would have occurred if he had been hit in the femur. That was from an M16A1 and M193 at close range.

I wish I had pictures of the North Korean who had half his head blown off by the ROK Army soldier and his Daewoo K2 with Korean M855...my first introduction to real-world 5.56 injuries, but the photos were all controlled by our Division G2 weenies, and I doubt they will be available anytime soon. That was in the winter of 1996-1997 on the DMZ in Korea.

[stanc]

Regarding universal calibers, here's a link to a magazine article about the Chinese 5.8x42 DBP10 round. Note bullet construction and wound profile.

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11774