Grendel as a Universal Infantry Cartridge

[Trooper]

Just remember that the 6.5x55 Swede showed that it does not take a fast bullet to get results. Thus a 140 gn bullet in 6.5mm was doing, at 2500 fps, as well as heavier rounds in either 7mm or 7.62mm (.30 caliber).

And we want a GPC that is not only an infantryman's cartridge but also a designated marksman's. And can be used in general purpose MG patterned after a SAW.

As for the 7.62x51, outside of the M240 and the DMR, it has fallen out of favor. Either the .300 WM Mk 248 or the .338 LM (or .338 NM) have become the sniper rounds. And the .338 NM could be used in a version of the M240 (or General Dynamics version) MG.

What the 6.5mm and the .338 have in common is that both have out of the box good BC.

[woohoo]

Look to have a general purpose (universal) cartridge it is going to have to be between 6.5 and 7mm. The 6.5mm works better due to less recoil.

The next aspect is getting the round to 2500 fps out of the barrel using a 140 grain bullet. That is the standard, set by the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. So far the .260 Rem, the 6.5 Creedmoor and and the 6.5x47 Laupa meet those requirements but with longer cases. As do wildcats like the 6.5 BRM which is based on the .30-30 case. The problem is that we can get a 140 gn. bullet to go 2500 but it takes a longer case than would fit into the current AR platform.

So could we make 6.5mm GPC that pushes a 140 gn. bullet 2500 fps? And make it smaller than a .308 (7.62x51)?

140 to 2500 out of a 16"? 123 to 2700 out of a 16"? I think from now on the bullets will be green, lighter and longer. COAL 2.6-2.7"

http://pg.b5z.net/get/mb5z/s700-*/zirw/2/i/u/6132121/i/pdir/18047/6.5x45jpg.jpg?bd=1

[Trooper]

140 to 2500 out of a 16"? 123 to 2700 out of a 16"? I think from now on the bullets will be green, lighter and longer. COAL 2.6-2.7"
http://pg.b5z.net/get/mb5z/s700-*/zi...45jpg.jpg?bd=1

I would assume that when comparing the 6.5mm GPC to the 7.62x51 that a 20" barrel would be the norm. These are battle rifle standards. The 16" is assault rifle/carbine thus one would compare the 5.56x45 to 6.5mm GPC.

[woohoo]

I would assume that when comparing the 6.5mm GPC to the 7.62x51 that a 20" barrel would be the norm. These are battle rifle standards. The 16" is assault rifle/carbine thus one would compare the 5.56x45 to 6.5mm GPC.

As noted in the other thread the real comparison should be to the enemy's 7.62x54 with a 24" barrel. The US military needs to be able to engage the enemy at whatever range they can engage us. Some still use a 20" DMR and LMG but many are getting shorter now.
In the past 8 years several have submitted intermediate power cartridges like the 6.8 and Grendel, neither were chosen. That should be a real sign. I think whatever cartridge will need to impress the crap out of those making the decision. Beat the 308/7.62x54 with a lighter weapon and ammo combo that has less recoil and more controllability than the 308 rifles and LMGs currently in use

Support troops should use a PDW or hand-me-down M4s. Give the combat troops a real GPC that can do it all.

ETA the 7.62x54 sniper load runs 2650-2700fps with a .498 BC bullet. The standard ball has a BC of around .435, many manufacturers exist.

[cory]

... I think whatever cartridge will need to impress the crap out of those making the decision. Beat the 308/7.62x54 with a lighter weapon and ammo combo that has less recoil and more controllability than the 308 rifles and LMGs currently in use.

Why don't we get them a unicorn to ride into battle with while we're at it.

Woohoo no direct hit on you man, but I keep hearing this. Until we figure out how to manipulate the laws of physics, this isn't going to happen.

The Civil War, WWI, & WWII were all won through attrition due to superiority in numbers. We relied upon this in Korea and Vietnam, it eventually failed both times. The next conventional war will be the same outcome if we continue down the same path.

This is all true for fighting on the ground and in the fight for air superiority.

How did we overcome this in air space? Training, Speed, & Technology

I'm not saying Grendel is the answer, but it can reach the same distances just not always with equal energy. That in all reality is enough, if the future combat weapons system's technology continues to be improved upon and employed.

Big advances have been and are being made in autonomous vehicles, grenade launchers, and mortars. Not to mention in networking.

If we can efficiently make all of these systems talk to each other we can render any advantage in range the enemy has in respect to small arms obsolete. We deploy, with each patrol, autonomous atv's armed with smart mortar systems and HMGs and small arms or optics with the ability to designate a target with minimal input from Marine/Soldier.

At this point what we need is a round that can reach the target with enough energy to convince the enemy to put their head down long enough for our boys to get a fix on their location.

Lessons learned: We learned in Vietnam in the battle for air superiority that all the technological advancements mean nothing without proper training and skilled pilots.

We've got to focus on training and the retention of our most skilled Marines/Soldiers and not just the retention of the ass kissers.

[montana]

Why don't we get them a unicorn to ride into battle with while we're at it.

Woohoo no direct hit on you man, but I keep hearing this. Until we figure out how to manipulate the laws of physics, this isn't going to happen.

The Civil War, WWI, & WWII were all won through attrition due to superiority in numbers. We relied upon this in Korea and Vietnam, it eventually failed both times. The next conventional war will be the same outcome if we continue down the same path.

This is all true for fighting on the ground and in the fight for air superiority.

How did we overcome this in air space? Training, Speed, & Technology

I'm not saying Grendel is the answer, but it can reach the same distances just not always with equal energy. That in all reality is enough, if the future combat weapons system's technology continues to be improved upon and employed.

Big advances have been and are being made in autonomous vehicles, grenade launchers, and mortars. Not to mention in networking.

If we can efficiently make all of these systems talk to each other we can render any advantage in range the enemy has in respect to small arms obsolete. We deploy, with each patrol, autonomous atv's armed with smart mortar systems and HMGs and small arms or optics with the ability to designate a target with minimal input from Marine/Soldier.

At this point what we need is a round that can reach the target with enough energy to convince the enemy to put their head down long enough for our boys to get a fix on their location.

Lessons learned: We learned in Vietnam in the battle for air superiority that all the technological advancements mean nothing without proper training and skilled pilots.

We've got to focus on training and the retention of our most skilled Marines/Soldiers and not just the retention of the ass kissers.

Well said,+1

[bwaites]

We've got to focus on training and the retention of our most skilled Marines/Soldiers and not just the retention of the ass kissers.

And you're the one who started with "Why don't we get them a unicorn to ride into battle with while we're at it"?

Retention of the best and brightest is every militaries difficulty, training appropriately and enough is the other.

[woohoo]

Why don't we get them a unicorn to ride into battle with while we're at it.
Until we figure out how to manipulate the laws of physics, this isn't going to happen.

Sure it can happen, I have had a 6mm since 2009 that will do it but I think a 95gr bullet is a little light. The 6.5x45, 6.8x45 or Murrays 7mmUIAC (7x46) will all do it and I think Guardsman is working on a similar 6.5 x46 for the UK that will do it. It takes a case with 40-42gr H20 capacity and a .25 BC bullet. I know someone that can make a poly case happen that will also reduce the ammo weight. The SCAR 17 is a light enough platform my Nexgen rifle is too. There are a few European countries interested and testing Murrays 7mmUIAC now.
The problem is getting the guys making the decision to make one and then getting the money to make it happen.

The thing is this intermediate cartridge has come up as a major meeting in the military 14 times since 2004. All of the carbine competitions the military has had, the XM-8, the SCAR program, Just look the topics of all the NDIA meetings. Everyone knows they need to change or improve the weapons, it comes up over and over. Early in 2014 the new caliber study will start. They just can't leave it alone, at some point in time they will change.

I don't disagree with you about training, there needs to be some changes there too.

[LRRPF52]

The reality is that no nation in their right mind is going to intentionally provoke the US into a conventional war, where our insane overmatch in logistics, air superiority, force projection, carrier battle groups, rapid deployment forces, and mech forces will grind any conventional force into a shell of its former self.

Every nation that wants to do us harm or cause problems for us that involves hostilities knows that asymmetric warfare is the only real option they have. That means we have to get our hands dirty with smaller, more flexible forces with strict ROE that doesn't level civilizations like we did in WWII.

That means Special Operations Forces as the main effort, with support from whoever they need, but the Pentagon doesn't want to swallow that, because there is nowhere near the money in it that there is by sending in boat and plane loads of big green pickle machine entry-level kids, with poorly-trained junior leaders for the most part, led by officers who were selected not based on their death-dealing prowess and martial breeding from the creme of all candidates, but subject to totally non-related arbitrary and social engineering protocols that not even the selecting bodies comprehend.

In this culture, there simply does not exist the capacity to employ an improved cartridge among riflemen. Only a few soldiers in sniper billets have the training to do it, as the DM's still don't seem to have a formal training and evaluation program that I'm aware of. There were some initial attempts to get a standardized POI, but the force has devolved in many ways when it comes to training.

For SAWs and GPMG's, there has been a somewhat solid program in place for training and qualification dating back decades and decades.

[cory]

The reality is that no nation in their right mind is going to intentionally provoke the US into a conventional war, where our insane overmatch in logistics, air superiority, force projection, carrier battle groups, rapid deployment forces, and mech forces will grind any conventional force into a shell of its former self...

Today you're correct. I fear with the direction this country is going we'll see a day in the not so distant future where will no longer be the case.

[TheOTHERmaninblack]

Today you're correct. I fear with the direction this country is going we'll see a day in the not so distant future where will no longer be the case.

I suspect that you may be correct. Our traditional enemies seem less afraid of us (or cautious, if you will) with each passing day. And with the purge of "non-compliant" officers going on in the military, we are solidly on the road to being that paper tiger of fame and legend.

Of course, that same mindset that is purging the officer's corps is who's going to be controlling the gear. At one time, I had high hopes that the 6.5 would be the new standard, but I no longer have faith.

[LRRPF52]

The US is the world's largest manufacturer and supplier of arms to other nations, no competition, plus we have the two best defense forces in the world:

Pacific Ocean
Atlantic Ocean

Complacency has been in our National psyche because of this dating back well over a century. I think once we defeated the world's largest and most powerful empire twice, people realized that there was no gain in messing with the newly-formed United States with overt military power. Then we took Mexico's territory, spread West, and gained control of the entire Gulf Coast Region, from Southern Texas to New Orleans, and the Pacific Coast from San Diego to the Puget Sound.

We don't have the same sense that other nations do, that at any given time, their neighbors can become belligerent, and make life difficult for them in a quest for competing interests in critical natural resources in their region, or worse.

When we talk about US defense, we are really talking about defense and pursuit of our interests overseas, since we inherited the policing of the global trade routes from the British, who were a shadow of their former selves after the two Great World Wars, where they were bailed out by their former escaped colonists from the US.

As we further our interests abroad, regional factions who seek to hamper our hegemony on power projection realize that their only means of combating the US Military might involves leveraging asymmetric tactics against ungainly conventional forces.

Prime examples:

* Small motorboat laden with explosives vs. huge US Destroyer, using deception and audacity in their approach (USS Cole)
* Small suicide teams of insurgent sappers infiltrate Camp Bastion USMC Harrier base in Afghanistan, destroying 6 and damaging 2, using deception by wearing US Army Uniforms.
* Using the ruse of wanting to inform amateur CIA officers, a high-value informant who was really a double agent wore a suicide vest when he was allowed into a CIA Forward Operating Base (Chapman) in Afghanistan, killing 8 CIA officers and contractors.

You won't find any stories where companies or battalions of enemy are assaulting US and Coalition Forces. You can look all the way back to Vietnam and find scores of similar stories.

* Tet 1968: A small VC Sapper team infiltrates the US Embassy in Saigon with Satchel charges and small arms, causing chaos for several hours. The operation is an utter tactical failure, but one of the most important strategic successes in the history of warfare, because cameras were rolling, and the communists had a huge following in the US media. It appeared that the enemy was able to easily overrun and take the US Embassy, deep in the Capitol of South Vietnam. This demoralized the populace back in the US, causing massive political pressure to pull out from the War.

What does this have to do with small arms? Every one of these incidents was an intelligence failure. The Pentagon could care less about these types of incidents, as long as trillions are flowing into conventional, big ticket projects.

[LR1955]

I suspect that you may be correct. Our traditional enemies seem less afraid of us (or cautious, if you will) with each passing day. And with the purge of "non-compliant" officers going on in the military, we are solidly on the road to being that paper tiger of fame and legend.

Of course, that same mindset that is purging the officer's corps is who's going to be controlling the gear. At one time, I had high hopes that the 6.5 would be the new standard, but I no longer have faith.

OK -- I just have to ask.

How many RIFs did you live through in your Army career?

How about showing us proof that boards are in the process of removing Officers and NCO's who are 'non-compliant'.

I am sure that since you believe a 'purge' of 'non-compliant' officers is going on, that you can link us to a Dept of the Army web site that has a copy of this compliancy list and states how to look at a 201 file or OER and determine if an Officer is or is not 'compliant'.

LR1955

[cory]

OK -- I just have to ask.

How many RIFs did you live through in your Army career?

How about showing us proof that boards are in the process of removing Officers and NCO's who are 'non-compliant'.

I am sure that since you believe a 'purge' of 'non-compliant' officers is going on, that you can link us to a Dept of the Army web site that has a copy of this compliancy list and states how to look at a 201 file or OER and determine if an Officer is or is not 'compliant'.

LR1955

LR 1955 you would of been on of the many in the 1930s screaming, show me the proof that the nazis are slaughtering their own people.

[bwaites]

LR 1955 you would of been on of the many in the 1930s screaming, show me the proof that the nazis are slaughtering their own people.

Not Hardly. But he is a realist.