Grendel as a Universal Infantry Cartridge

[stanc]

Well, I'm not about to call Bill or anyone anything (Cory wasn't either), because he is a pretty factual guy.

Bill says it's been measured at 50k psi. Cory says it's actually 10k psi lower. How is that not saying Bill isn't telling the truth?

Losing 10 grains of projectile weight while also losing over 200 feet per second would seem to be a bit odd.

I fully agree.

[cory]

Bill says it's been measured at 50k psi. Cory says it's actually 10k psi lower. How is that not saying Bill isn't telling the truth?

No that's not what I said.

JASmith was kind enough to run some numbers through quickload.

Per JASmith

My experience with the powder survey utility in QuickLoad is that the numbers generally come out fairly close to the velocities generally reported for safe loads with a particular bullet. A note of caution, however, is that QL results can frequently vary from published pressures by 5,000 psi and velocities by 200 fps when modeling particular loads. Hence QuickLoad is best viewed as a tool for developing insight rather than specifying particular load recipes.

I don't think anyone here doubts Bill A in the least. Those numbers show that the load could have been accomplished at anywhere from a 39ksi to a 50ksi load. This supposts both what I said in this thread and what Bill A has told us.

Back to the Wolf ammo. It appears to have been developed with an ultraconservative load. You'd think in 8 years of development they could have refined their analysis and design, allowing a less conservative choice.

With recent events I wonder if they hadn’t already made a substantial order of powder for the 110gr steel core projectile, and then had to switch the projectile last minute because of the ruling on the 5.45 ammo. Rather than going back to the drawing board, selecting a new projectile, and selecting a powder for the projectile, they may have selected the new projectile based on the powder in hand.

[stanc]

No that's not what I said.

I don't think anyone here doubts Bill A in the least. Those numbers show that the load could have been accomplished at anywhere from a 39ksi to a 50ksi load. This supposts both what I said in this thread and what Bill A has told us.

Did you not say that the Wolf ammo is 10k psi below SAAMI spec? Bill said it tested at ~50k psi. You can't both be right.

With recent events I wonder if they hadn’t already made a substantial order of powder for the 110gr steel core projectile, and then had to switch the projectile last minute because of the ruling on the 5.45 ammo. Rather than going back to the drawing board, selecting a new projectile, and selecting a powder for the projectile, they may have selected the new projectile based on the powder in hand.

As I previously noted, a year and a half ago Bill posted that Barnaul planned to use a 100gr -- not 110gr -- steel-core FMJBT bullet. Weight of the current bullet is unchanged from that of 2012.

Try again.

[cory]

Did you not say that the Wolf ammo is 10k psi below SAAMI spec? Bill said it tested at ~50k psi. You can't both be right.

As I previously noted, a year and a half ago Bill posted that Barnaul planned to use a 100gr -- not 110gr -- steel-core FMJBT bullet. Weight of the current bullet is unchanged from that of 2012.

Try again.

As you so elegantly like to point out to us, you should read the post again.

Is that a serious question? Which military loading for either of those platforms is 10ksi below their SAAMI Spec?

This load may be a 50ksi load. However, QL shows us that 2600fps with a 100gr projectile can be had with a different powder at 39ksi (theoretically). Therefore there is 10+ksi that has been left on the table. That is not the case for the loads you want to compare it to.

[nincomp]

We already know the potential of the round from the current commercial loadings. That gives us enough info for its use as a Universal Infantry Cartridge.

If indeed the Wolf ammo will arrive in the next year (yeah, I know that we have heard this before) I think that we should not gripe too much about non-optimal performance. If indeed its accuracy is in the 2-3 MOA range, it is going plenty fast for the distances in which it will be used. By that, I mean a 2-3 MOA round is would not be the first choice for high precision 600+ yard shooting anyway.

The velocity of the supplied samples is lower than some (more expensive) commercial loadings. This simply means that there is plenty of potential left for a "New Improved" loading from Wolf.


This message has been provided by the Glass-Half-Full Society.

[stanc]

This load may be a 50ksi load. However, QL shows us that 2600fps with a 100gr projectile can be had with a different powder at 39ksi (theoretically).

I don't give a crap about theoretical calculations for different powders. I'm only concerned with what has actually been achieved in reality with the Wolf ammo. If its pressure has been measured accurately as 50k psi, then it is not 10k psi lower than SAAMI spec.

[cory]

I don't give a crap about theoretical calculations for different powders. I'm only concerned with what has actually been achieved in reality with the Wolf ammo. If its pressure has been measured accurately as 50k psi, then it is not 10k psi lower than SAAMI spec.

Sometimes we should just leave the science to the scientists and the sensationalism to the journalist.

[stanc]

We already know the potential of the round from the current commercial loadings. That gives us enough info for its use as a Universal Infantry Cartridge.

I must disagree. With the notable exception of the US, NATO armies use FMJ ammo. Current commercial loadings have match or hunting bullets, not FMJ. Also, the bullet weights and BCs are, in most cases, significantly greater than can be expected of a 6.5mm ball projectile. As a result, they are useless for "apples vs apples" testing vs 5.56 and 7.62 ball ammo.

If indeed the Wolf ammo will arrive in the next year...I think that we should not gripe too much about non-optimal performance. If indeed its accuracy is in the 2-3 MOA range, it is going plenty fast for the distances in which it will be used. By that, I mean a 2-3 MOA round is would not be the first choice for high precision 600+ yard shooting anyway.

Of course it wouldn't. But, that's also true of 5.56 M855 and 7.62 M80. My question is, is the reported 2.4 MOA accuracy of the Wolf FMJ comparable to that of M855 and M80, or is it significantly worse?

The velocity of the supplied samples is lower than some (more expensive) commercial loadings. This simply means that there is plenty of potential left for a "New Improved" loading from Wolf.

That isn't the conclusion I reach from Bill's recent posts:

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?1181-Wolf-Steel-Case&p=96000&viewfull=1#post96000

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?1181-Wolf-Steel-Case&p=96143&viewfull=1#post96143

If all design and performance aspects of the current load have been balanced and optimized for use in self-loading rifles, it's hard to see how it could be improved.

[stanc]

Sometimes we should just leave the science to the scientists and the sensationalism to the journalist.

I don't know what that means. Are you saying that Fortier doesn't know how to properly use a chronograph?

[JASmith]

One of the challenges we have discussed has been our perceived imperative to use 'green' ammunition. This translates to copper and iron as the primary components of the bullet, making the bullets longer than would be the case with traditional lead-copper bullet construction. A military cartridge also needs to have a tracer round variant with the attendant increase in bullet length pyro compounds are usually less dense than iron.

This development may serve to both minimize the adverse bullet length impact and to keep ball and tracer rounds on the same trajectory because one outcome of this effort may be that all ball ammunition is tracer ammunition:

Defense Update.com -- One-Way Luminescent tracers

[Variable]

Hrmmm.... A glow in the dark sticker dot. Okaaayyyy.... Could be genius or a wild goose chase.

If I had some glow in the dark paint, I'd try it.LOL

They'd have to have a righteously glowing compound to be daylight visible...

[cory]

I think the daylight visibility requirement is kind of like the we want a rifle lighter than the 5.56 with greater terminal effects than the .308.

[JASmith]

India has announced a competition for a rifle that must be capable of converting from 5.56mm caliber to 7.62x39mm -

See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2....1TN56ZeC.dpuf

[stanc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soY3gO_ZZrE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shAspKP5vn8

I wonder how the Wolf 100gr FMJ ammo would fare in such tests?

[Variable]

Thanks Stan, those are some great vids.

I don't have the time or resources to do all that, but how about Wolf 100 FMJ through a cinderblock with a milk jug behind it?

I could start at 10.5" and go up if the 10.5" doesn't deliver?

If I had to guess, I think the 100 FMJ will hit the jug even out of my shorty.....