Grendel as a Universal Infantry Cartridge

[stanc]

I don't have the time or resources to do all that, but how about Wolf 100 FMJ through a cinderblock with a milk jug behind it?

I could start at 10.5" and go up if the 10.5" doesn't deliver?

Sure, I'd love to see a vid of that.

[Variable]

I can't get it done today, but I'll get it soon.

[Variable]

Scratch that. Just did it.

Epic fail in both 10.5" and 14.5" barrels.

It punches through one side and makes a divot on the back. Splits it, but nothing out the back. Grrr...

I'll upload a failure vid later (not enough bandwidth here).

10.5" vid. http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...psd67mc7ru.mp4

14.5" vid. (Placeholder-- can't get the damned thing to load)






Maybe Appalachian blocks are just stronger. ;-)

[LRRPF52]

This is interesting that you guys are discussing this, because I did a cinder block test ignorant of this thread this weekend down at North Springs. I used the 123gr SST factory ammo from my 16" Grendel, at 50yds.

Before:



After



I have video of it through the spotting scope as well. I need to get it from my friend. It was more destructive than I thought it would be, especially for a polymer tipped hunting bullet that is designed to expand with a relatively soft nose. It went clean through and fragmented the block outwards. It was pretty impressive.

[danm]

This is interesting that you guys are discussing this, because I did a cinder block test ignorant of this thread this weekend down at North Springs. I used the 123gr SST factory ammo from my 16" Grendel, at 50yds.

Before:



After



I have video of it through the spotting scope as well. I need to get it from my friend. It was more destructive than I thought it would be, especially for a polymer tipped hunting bullet that is designed to expand with a relatively soft nose. It went clean through and fragmented the block outwards. It was pretty impressive.

Nice! I'm planning a range day for this Friday... I'll see if I can bring some blocks...

[stanc]

Scratch that. Just did it.

Epic fail in both 10.5" and 14.5" barrels.

It punches through one side and makes a divot on the back. Splits it, but nothing out the back. Grrr...

I share your disappointment, but in hindsight the result should perhaps have been expected.

In the video I posted, 7.62x39 lead-core 123gr FMJ @ ~2300 fps failed.

The 6.5 Grendel lead-core 100gr FMJ @ ~2200 fps (10.5") and ~2400 fps (14.5") has less energy and momentum than 7.62x39.

7.62 NATO 147gr FMJ punches through both sides of a block, with sufficient residual velocity to inflict serious, if not fatal, wounding.

Your demo gives cause to doubt that 6.5 Grendel is capable of replacing 7.62 NATO.

Unless a much better projectile can be developed, and launched at much higher velocity...

[Variable]

This is interesting that you guys are discussing this, because I did a cinder block test ignorant of this thread this weekend down at North Springs. I used the 123gr SST factory ammo from my 16" Grendel, at 50yds.

Before:



After



I have video of it through the spotting scope as well. I need to get it from my friend. It was more destructive than I thought it would be, especially for a polymer tipped hunting bullet that is designed to expand with a relatively soft nose. It went clean through and fragmented the block outwards. It was pretty impressive.

Cool.

I guess I need to try something other than Wolf.

Did the bullet penetrate the rear wall or did it just bust the block?

[Variable]

I share your disappointment, but in hindsight the result should perhaps have been expected.

In the video I posted, 7.62x39 lead-core 123gr FMJ @ ~2300 fps failed.

The 6.5 Grendel lead-core 100gr FMJ @ ~2200 fps (10.5") and ~2400 fps (14.5") has less energy and momentum than 7.62x39.

7.62 NATO 147gr FMJ punches through both sides of a block, with sufficient residual velocity to inflict serious, if not fatal, wounding.

Your demo gives cause to doubt that 6.5 Grendel is capable of replacing 7.62 NATO.

Unless a much better projectile can be developed, and launched at much higher velocity...

Yeah. I hate to reload, but maybe a 120gr. Norma FMJ? I know it's not anywhere near "green" though.

[LRRPF52]

It went through and through, as well as fragmenting the block, and I was at 50 yards.

There don't seem to be any problems with a 123gr SST from a 16" barrel at 2450fps. Comparing the 100gr Wolf to a 147gr M80 will leave the M80 coming out ahead, but for a DMC, I would take the Grendel over 7.62x51 without reservation, logistics considerations equaled for both.

I would be interested to see what a 12.5" Grendel does with the 123gr. I can just put blocks out farther I guess. This kind of testing isn't on the top of my list, but it is fun.

[stanc]

Yeah. I hate to reload, but maybe a 120gr. Norma FMJ? I know it's not anywhere near "green" though.

Well, there is no "green" 6.5mm military-type, ball projectile on the market. You can't test what you can't get.

Besides, IMO, a lead-free bullet would not be necessary or even desirable for testing penetration relative to lead-core 7.62mm M80 Ball.

That is, if one wants to determine what combination of 6.5mm FMJ bullet weight and velocity is needed to achieve comparable ability to punch through cinder blocks.

I think the Norma 120gr FMJ ought to be just fine for such test and evaluation.

And since BC is rather inconsequential at such short distance, the Lapua 100gr FMJ might also be an option to test a lighter bullet at higher velocity than can be had with the Norma projectile.

Understand, I'm not asking you to do such a T&E. You've already done more than I'd hoped for in this test of the Wolf FMJ vs a CMU. But, if you should proceed, I'll be very interested in the results.

[stanc]

It went through and through, as well as fragmenting the block, and I was at 50 yards.

There don't seem to be any problems with a 123gr SST from a 16" barrel at 2450fps.

Of course, there's the possibility that your block had different wall thickness, or was not as tough as Variable's.

This kind of testing isn't on the top of my list, but it is fun.

Yeah, I always enjoyed such testing. If I were able, I'd still be doing it.

[BluntForceTrauma]

If I remember a PowerPoint presentation on M855A1 it was reported that it could penetrate a CMU where M855 could not.

What is interesting to me — particularly if I were, say, a project leader in developing a 65G round for the breaching of CMUs — is to analyze WHY it did not penetrate.

[stanc]

How would you do that?

[BluntForceTrauma]

I'm just wondering about the variables we have at play: Was the jacket too thin? Lead alloy too soft? Mass just too low? (123 grains penetrated.) Block composition unusual? (It DID look different from the standard CMUs I'm used to seeing.) Velocity too low? Etc.

I'd be curious how a 90gr monolithic would do. . . .

[LRRPF52]

I can't recall now if it was the 123gr Scenar or the 123gr SST. Here's the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ynSCv7auks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ynSCv7auks