New Army "Caliber Configuration Study"

[BluntForceTrauma]

Don't get me wrong, Stan, I'm not advocating a machine gun-free world. My vision is dismounted squads and platoons rife with 65G belt-fed LMGs; I'm only foregoing the 7.62Ns because I believe 65G capability encroaches its performance envelope from the one end and ABGLs encroach from the other.

I just wanted to get perspective from a combat vet with recent experience.

The thing about the 84mm CGs is what you really want is their tank- and bunker-busting capabilities. Maybe what we need is a "mini-CG" in 60mm or 40mm? With recoilless, you could up the velocity of a 40mm and increase the range.

John

[stanc]

Don't get me wrong, Stan, I'm not advocating a machine gun-free world. My vision is dismounted squads and platoons rife with 65G belt-fed LMGs; I'm only foregoing the 7.62Ns because I believe 65G capability encroaches its performance envelope from the one end and ABGLs encroach from the other.

Ah, I think I misunderstood. I thought you were advocating the ABGL to replace the MMG, which isn't feasible due to the substantial differences in effective range.

I would note that, if 65G ballistics do actually match 7.62, then your 65G LMG is replacing the 7.62 MMG throughout its performance envelope. The ABGL would just be augmenting the LMG/MMG within the 500-meter max effective range/700-meter max range envelope.

The thing about the 84mm CGs is what you really want is their tank- and bunker-busting capabilities.

Uh, not exactly. At least, not in Afghanistan, where the enemy has no tanks. The HE airburst, anti-personnel round is more needed than HEAT (anti-tank) ammo.

[BluntForceTrauma]

if 65G ballistics do actually match 7.62, then your 65G LMG is replacing the 7.62 MMG throughout its performance envelope.

As we know, the jury is still out whether a 123gr 65G that meets or exceeds M80 and M118LR external ballistics can also match their terminal ballistics. Even if we assume that it doesn't match their terminal ballistics one-for-one, I'm willing to forego that because I believe the other advantages of a 65G system balance that out. (And if one-for-one match of 7.62N terminal ballistics were an ABSOLUTE requirement, then 5.56 would not exist in our inventory! Having thought about this and argued it for ten years, I've come to the conclusion that performance parameters are, basically, arbitrary and sometimes politically driven. Should we require helmet penetration at 500m or 600m? What about 550m? Should we require 10" or 12" of concrete penetration? What about 11"? Should a temporary cavity in ballistic gel be 6" or 8"? All somewhat arbitrary.)

Uh, not exactly. At least, not in Afghanistan, where the enemy has no tanks. The HE airburst, anti-personnel round is more needed than HEAT (anti-tank) ammo.

I'm fighting all wars, particularly with an eye toward China or North Korea, not just Afghanistan, wanting general-purpose capability against fully equipped modern armies, as well as guerrillas.

John

[stanc]

As we know, the jury is still out whether a 123gr 65G that meets or exceeds M80 and M118LR external ballistics can also match their terminal ballistics.

I don't need to remind you that I've been calling for appropriate testing for close to a decade.

But, the gel tests that AA had done, and which were posted on the old forum, showed that wound profile of the Norma 120gr FMJ is roughly the same as for 147gr M80, and the prototype 123gr SMK was much better, having early yaw and fairly impressive wound cavity. So, I'm not terribly concerned about performance in soft tissue with lead-core bullets.

However, the military is getting away from lead-core bullets for general-issue ball ammo. This means we really should be looking at performance of a lead-free ball projectile, which will necessarily be much lighter than 123gr. Can a 100-110gr, steel (or steel/copper) core bullet provide exterior ballistics and terminal effects that would make 65G an acceptable replacement for 7.62 NATO?

Even if we assume that it doesn't match their terminal ballistics one-for-one, I'm willing to forego that because I believe the other advantages of a 65G system balance that out.

I'm inclined to agree, although I'd prefer to make such a decision on the basis of valid test data, rather than belief.

I'm fighting all wars, particularly with an eye toward China or North Korea, not just Afghanistan, wanting general-purpose capability against fully equipped modern armies, as well as guerrillas.

Well, that's why the Carl Gustav is a MAAWS: Multi-purpose, Anti-armor, Anti-personnel, Weapon System.

And BTW, if you're really concerned about tanks, the 84mm HEAT rounds are far more capable of defeating armor, than the 25mm and 40mm grenades can ever hope of being, so you may wish to re-evaluate.

[JASmith]

Don't get me wrong, Stan, I'm not advocating a machine gun-free world. My vision is dismounted squads and platoons rife with 65G belt-fed LMGs; I'm only foregoing the 7.62Ns because I believe 65G capability encroaches its performance envelope from the one end and ABGLs encroach from the other.

I just wanted to get perspective from a combat vet with recent experience.

The thing about the 84mm CGs is what you really want is their tank- and bunker-busting capabilities. Maybe what we need is a "mini-CG" in 60mm or 40mm? With recoilless, you could up the velocity of a 40mm and increase the range.

John

John, thanks for the clarification.

Looking forward to their responses!

[LRRPF52]

You can't take away suppressive fire capability from dismounts or even mounted vehicles and replace it with HE warheads from mortars or recoilless rifles. They work together well. There needs to be return fire capability from belt-feds while tube-based HE warhead weapons are dialed in if appropriate.

RPG's are very hard on the user and anyone around them if we're talking about over pressure. When you light off an RPG, it sounds like a grenade went off at the firer's position. It is nothing like the movies. Once the trigger is pulled, there is a piercing explosion and impact happens almost immediately. The fins are very large as well, and a near miss can equal a hit on anyone within the radius of the fins. A guy in my Battalion lost his legs that way in OIF1, and the warhead killed another.

[stanc]

RPG's are very hard on the user and anyone around them if we're talking about over pressure. When you light off an RPG, it sounds like a grenade went off at the firer's position.

Something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8_NF7cY4uY

It is nothing like the movies. Once the trigger is pulled, there is a piercing explosion and impact happens almost immediately.

Sounds like you watched MythBusters!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6KdHfP_0x8

[joker31]

The CG is not very rough on the body when firing, its about like firing a law but not as bad as a Javelin (Changes your hairstyle forever when you shoot it) or the AT-4, the big downside of the Goose is the fact that its rounds are heavy and its hard to carry more than one type of round.

Id be perfectly comfortable having a Team with the 6.5G M4's and a CG and a M27 IAR in 6.5G with the 100rnd drums I seen in Afghanistan (Not Beta mags, think they were Xmags) in the Iraq type terrain, I'd have to see in Afghanistan because I like the capability of the M27 being used as a DMR. Thats the real use of the M27, it wasn't in the budget to build a DMR for the marines but there was a budget for a Squad level Automatic Rifle. The Money was used for that rifle because it shoots just as good as a MK12 (Or close enough for its role) and can be used by anyone who picks it up. The Army needs the same thing because of the reduction in size. Whatever the Army does, it needs to stay AR/M16 Platform without any doubts. Its natural and its unobtrusive in vehicles, it versatile and any American can operate it. (My 8year old daughter has been for 3 years, my 2 year old will start in 2 years)

I have also seen problems with the 416's we were issued at first, the magazines would cause jams when you were using suppressors, switch to pmags and all was good but the HK mags have this gasket thing under the follower that caused jams, some took them apart and ripped the gasket off, I had Pmags and troy mags with me. I later traded for Lancer mags and loved them because the troy mags get beat up, they worked but looked pretty bad. I took a hit in a sideplate that damaged 2 Pmags and they kept working one was low near the floorplate, the other near the lips. (I kept my next to last mag upside down to tell me mentally that I'm almost out, it was also half full of Tracers) My guys all were loaded the same way, that way the team knew someone's rifle was getting ready to go down. I was given a SAW at first because of my size and ability, since I was the ATL I got to tell them it was stupid to give the Warrant Officer the SAW when my training was 2 million dollars plus for my basic courses. so it went to a Staff Sgt, I could never get it to run to my liking but he got it to run pretty well (He had carried one since he was a PFC) He knew how to bend the parts in the feed tray correctly and to stone certain parts and to dremel certain others (Was Brand new)

The RPG's go 1200m+ in the real world btw.... seen them used nearly 1600 as mortars on a FOB in Kunar and 1300 on Baghram, they know how to disconnect the range fuse on them but leave the impact fuse. They also have ones that punch holes in an MRAP like its plywood but only seen them in highly populated areas and one was used to kill a good friend of mine in an MRAP but they hit the suspension of the vehicle and it wiped out the whole front of the vehicle. Dont read the books about the limitations of the RPG, they are incredible and I hate them more than anything, IED's included because IED's dont take down helos (Except the one that landed on one in Paktikka, talk about bad luck)

We need to have a MMG that can out distance a DSHK but I dont see it happening but one that will out shoot a 7.62x54 is possible, that is what we need. in the low tech world against enemies using Soviet cast offs thats our worst threat, against the Chinese its all electronic unless we invade or they do.

If we meet them in Korea I think it will be interesting and we will have to start evaluating their (Oddball rounds..etc) Capabilities. I have not really looked at them to be a big enemy because they are bigger capitalists than we are, I think in the next 50 years there will be a war that they start because they are slashing and burning their environment so they will have no choice but to move into places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, India or even South America or Africa where the defense is at the WW1 level. Africa will be very interesting because its very wide open in some places but the people are not afraid to get very bloody for a cause. The people have a very strong will to survive because thats all they have ever had.

The Army is looking at a Blimp that carries munitions right now, The Transportation corps is using them for the withdrawal in Afghanistan if they can get the State dept to talk to Pakistan. The Army is looking into some crazy ideas now so until the Ray guns come forward they will stay with the 5.56. I did read that the budget for the MULE project was approved. It would be good in flat areas like the desert but I'm not sure it will work in the mountains. Maybe we will go all UAV/UGV's and we wont have to worry about it until they are used against us by our own government.... Hows that for a nightmare.

[joker31]

You can't take away suppressive fire capability from dismounts or even mounted vehicles and replace it with HE warheads from mortars or recoilless rifles. They work together well. There needs to be return fire capability from belt-feds while tube-based HE warhead weapons are dialed in if appropriate.

RPG's are very hard on the user and anyone around them if we're talking about over pressure. When you light off an RPG, it sounds like a grenade went off at the firer's position. It is nothing like the movies. Once the trigger is pulled, there is a piercing explosion and impact happens almost immediately. The fins are very large as well, and a near miss can equal a hit on anyone within the radius of the fins. A guy in my Battalion lost his legs that way in OIF1, and the warhead killed another.

Yep, I seen the fins shred the sheet metal roof on my hut when one failed to go off. EOD said the dumb asses disconnected the impact and the distance fuses.

[BluntForceTrauma]

And BTW, if you're really concerned about tanks, the 84mm HEAT rounds are far more capable of defeating armor, than the 25mm and 40mm grenades can ever hope of being, so you may wish to re-evaluate.

No, no, KEEP the 84mm CG for tanks and big stuff but ADD a new 40mm High Velocity, Recoilless, Shoulder-Fired, Laser-Ranged, Air-Burst, Grenade Launcher (HVRSFLRABGL for short ). Something like, oh, the external diameter of the Russian RPG launcher but firing cartridge-type grenades. Making the caliber 40mm instead of 84mm allows one to carry more rounds. This would replace things like the M203 and would be just as ubiquitous in the squad.

As LR noted, while your ARs and LMGs are suppressing and pinning down the enemy, your grenadier is lazing the range for a close proximity air-burst.

John

[joker31]

The 203 has been replaced already with an awesome launcher and the 40mm Grenade does not equal a 40mm CG round, by any stretch of the imagination. The 84mmCG is good because there are subcaliber rounds that can be fired, either through Flechets, Sabots or other means. Would love to see a metal storm type weapon for anti-vehicle or anti mortar use. The CIWS was used in Iraq a bunch, never saw it in Afg. I did get to shoot a lot of foreign stuff, like the FAMAS and the polish Beryl, PS90's and even a Tavor in full auto. I still get a smile when I remember shooting the Javelin though, seeing that thing just take off was awesome, The Line charges the Marines used were awesome too. Watched a gunner shoot a grenade out of the air like a clay pigeon was another good moment. a younger (14-16yo) talib throw the grenade as we were going by (they tried to hit the turrets like basketball hoops) our gunners with 50's had to point muzzles up in towns so they were given Benelli shotguns for force protection in addition to the M4 they had in a rack in the turret. The bad guys in Iraq were using parachute grenades to hit turrets so our gunners had shotguns. I was a T/C in a vehicle when I saw the talib pop out ahead and throw it, immediately, it was shot out of the air and our gunner (with a 240B) hit the Talib....was like a blocked shot in an NBA game.... Seems crazy now but at the time it was just an everyday thing.

Hanka, the scenario sounds good but the whole fine motor skill goes out the window when the bullets fly, my first firefight was over in 30min and I didnt remeber firing a shot but was down 4 magazines when I checked for expend report... I think the Air burst thing needs refinement, the Marines 6pack works well enough.

[LRRPF52]

RPG warheads that are no joke are the thermobaric versions. The RPG-29 will smoke your bags lights out before you know what happened. It will reduce buildings to rubble in a flash, literally. Effective range is significantly reduced though, due to warhead payload and drag, since it is what it is.

A lot of them were transferred to Hezbollah and Syria, and have been used to take out Abrams. They are any combatant's nightmare if you think about what happens when a thermobaric warhead does its thing. I would list several examples, but I won't since you would all recognize them immediately, then say, "You mean _ _ _ was a thermobaric charge?"

One of the most effective small elements is the organization of 3-man teams using a mix of SVD's, PKM's, and RPG's. 3 teams composed of these weapons can wreak havoc on a significantly larger force, and have done so from Chechnya to the Middle East and Afghanistan.

Joker31 mentioned training of the Taliban, and that they aren't stupid. If you know the history of the region, the Mujaheddin received better training in how to run an insurgency, to include better small unit tactics training than 99% of any US infantry soldier will ever receive if big Army keeps doing what they do.

That program was run and really envisioned largely by a former enlisted SF NCO turned SF officer, who went to work for the CIA in their ill-advised arming and training of the Muj in the Soviet-Afghan War of 1979-1989. They ran training camps in the Federally Administered Tribal Regions with the Pakistani ISI supervision, and turned on a major "kill Russians" program, which back-fired on us with 9/11 in more ways than one.

The improvised explosives and mines courses that were taught to them were completely gloves off, as were the small unit tactics and UW logistics networking. I have been able to interview several Soviet Afghan War vets to hear what it was like on the receiving end of the EFP's and booster grenades, and things really changed for the Russians once this UW program went into effect.

Soviet Spetsnaz GRU units were operationally tasked with interdicting the CIA's clandestine logistics network, as well as taking out Mujaheddin insurgents, but there wasn't much they could do once this integrated UW force was turned loose with the training and equipment they had, especially including the Stinger MANPADS. I have a book about it entirely in Russian that is one of the best books on the Afghan-Soviet War you will ever find, specifically written for the GRU Spetsnaz Veterans. They were hell-bent on just proving that the US was providing Stingers to them, and took great pride in the recovery of one of the used launchers in its case. The CIA did a one-for-one rule where if Mr. Muj wanted to receive another missile, he had to bring the used one back so it wouldn't end up sold on the black market.



As to calibers and how they were structured across the UW force, the former SF NCO/officer was very instrumental in configuring it, and he was adamant about stopping the Lee Enfield rifles from being proliferated anymore (original CIA program was to just annoy the Russians), and demanded that Central Asian Bureau adopt a modern small arms mix of AKM's, heavy machine guns, RPG's, and anti-aircraft weapons. There were some RPD's (Type 56 Chinese copies), and other small arms sourced from mainly China and the Middle East, but the combined mix of weaponry and training was really more than the Russians could deal with.

[joker31]

When HIND gunners DSHK's barrels got overheated, they would flip the lever and kick them out and put a new one on, we were still getting shot at by those barrels when I was there, they even had a 7.62x54R version of the AK with a 14" Barrel and an underfolding stock that they were using for punching through our body armor. I captured one of them from a guy who was tried to outrun me up a mountain, the team was yelling, just shoot him, I was saying no, ill get him, the sniper was holding the scope on him all the way up until I tackled him...He tried to shoot me with it and he forgot to chamber a round in it..... I beat his ass with it, then dragged him down the side of the mountain by his feet. little bastard climbed like a billy goat, I had to redeem myself because one got away a couple days earlier, He climbed like one of those european free running Monkeymen.

[stanc]

Id be perfectly comfortable having a Team with the 6.5G M4's and a CG and a M27 IAR in 6.5G with the 100rnd drums I seen in Afghanistan (Not Beta mags, think they were Xmags) in the Iraq type terrain, I'd have to see in Afghanistan... The Army needs the same thing because of the reduction in size.

A Grendel IAR should certainly be much easier and far less costly to develop than a belt-fed LMG. I'd think creation of a 6.5G IAR demonstration platform ought to be within the realm of not only Alexander Arms, but just about any Grendel shooter who has a select-fire lower receiver and 25-rd magazines.

If what you saw is the X-15 drum, capacity is only 50 rounds. The X-15 drum imposes a substantial weight penalty. Empty, it's about 2 lbs. That's heavier than the 50 rounds of 5.56 ammo it holds. That would severely impact the quantity of ammo the automatic rifleman can carry. 800 rds in links = 400 rds in X-15 drums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuOT4sI-msk

[joker31]

Mybe it wasn't the X15, the one I saw was plastic and clear, I was told it held 100 rounds but maybe they were wrong, it was a Captain of a Cav unit that told me about the particulars of the system, I saw it but never got to play with it. I did see a few AA12's also but didnt get to play with them either, one was being used for State dept security in a Bazaar during a VIP walk through, I was ducking cameras at the time and getting cards from the writers to have them redact me out. I did however see a SCAR in 6.8, which I didn't think existed at the time, even seen a 416 style HK upper on an M4 lower, which I thought wouldn't work. Everyone liked to point out stuff to me because I was previously a part of a WIT Team (Weapons intelligence Team) but most of that was explosive based including collecting brass headstamps and trace elements and cataloging techniques so we could tell how many bomb makers there were and how well trained they were etc... I was bored with that because they were talking court appearances and stuff like that so contractors were brought in (To preserve our identities) I am really interested in the Tavor myself and took a helo ride to get to shoot one, It was a real good time. I really think I may end up buying one soon. I worked around a lot of vehicles a lot and my interest is in small rifles but I primarily fought in long distance combat and was only engaged in a vehicle only once or twice. I think something like a 6.5 IAR would work well because the DMR and the Auto gunner are the same guy (Sexist I know but I only fought with guys 90% of the time but my partner was a female in everywhere else)
I have never fired a Grendel in Burst or Full auto so I'm not sure how it would act (Heat issues, feeding issues etc) but I can tell you that I'm yet to find a 26 round mag to feed correctly 100% of the time. BTW... The military only pays for development if they buy the product most of the time, they have gotten away from funding everyone's ideas, but DARPA will fund some things and most large contract companies have think tank divisions.