New Army "Caliber Configuration Study"

[cory]

In normal circumstances when the platoon goes out, would not the machine gunners of the weapons squad be carrying their .338 MMG's?

Only if attached to the rifle squad. Which would need to be justified by the commander requesting the extra firepower. This is not a normal situation.

[stanc]

A GPC LMG would retain the ability to match the PKM and might (if we are lucky) not weigh any more...

Perhaps that caveat should be, "if we are VERY lucky." Is there any reason to think that a new LMG would be developed, rather than just converting the Mk48?

[stanc]

Only if attached to the rifle squad. Which would need to be justified by the commander requesting the extra firepower. This is not a normal situation.

That makes no sense. When the platoon goes on a mission, the weapons squad is not ATTACHED to any of the rifle squads, it is part of the platoon.

[cory]

That makes no sense. When the platoon goes on a mission, the weapons squad is not ATTACHED to any of the rifle squads, it is part of the platoon.

No it's not part of the platoon. It's part of the same company. Completely different platoon.

[stanc]

No it's not part of the platoon. It's part of the same company. Completely different platoon.

Incorrect. The weapons squad is part of the platoon.

[stanc]

It wouldn't be different if the 5.56mm remains the standard infantry weapon calibre. It would be different if the 5.56mm were replaced by a GPC.

No argument there. The point is, the Squad Common Cartridge that comes out of the CLAWS program may not have 7.62mm ballistics.

[JASmith]

Stan,

Both might be right.

Do you see the Marine avatar used by Cory?

The cartoon you are using came from LRRPF52 -- an Army source.

We always knew the 'Gyrenes do things diffrn't -- this may be an example.

In any event, might we suggest using caution or at least more diplomatic language when suggesting that someone with long experience in the military and combat operations has the wrong picture of how things are done?

[Tony Williams]

In normal circumstances when the platoon goes out, would not the machine gunners of the weapons squad be carrying their .338 MMG's?

I am open to correction by anyone who knows differently, but AFAIK the British Army in Afghanistan did not normally send out patrols in platoon strength. The basic patrolling unit seems have been the standard section of eight men, sometimes supplemented by extras (snipers, or ATGW operators).

I've just looked through lots of photos on the web of the BA on patrol and the most I've seen in any pic is about a dozen, with the numbers visible generally being 6-8. Of course, every picture won't include everyone there, but you'd think that some of them would.

[stanc]

Stan,
Both might be right.
Do you see the Marine avatar used by Cory?
The cartoon you are using came from LRRPF52 -- an Army source.
We always knew the 'Gyrenes do things diffrn't -- this may be an example.

It may be. My training is US Army. I'm not familiar with the organization of foreign militaries.

In any event, might we suggest using caution or at least more diplomatic language when suggesting that someone with long experience in the military and combat operations has the wrong picture of how things are done?

a. My language was no less diplomatic than Cory's.

b. No, you may not suggest it. (And BTW, what's with the use of the royal "we"?)

[stanc]

I am open to correction by anyone who knows differently, but AFAIK the British Army in Afghanistan did not normally send out patrols in platoon strength. The basic patrolling unit seems have been the standard section of eight men, sometimes supplemented by extras...

I wouldn't know about that. But, I wasn't addressing the specific case of patrols. My question was, when the platoon does go out on a mission -- be it a patrol, or whatever -- would not the machine gunners of the weapons squad be carrying their .338 MMG's?

[cory]

I wouldn't know about that. But, I wasn't addressing the specific case of patrols. My question was, when the platoon does go out on a mission -- be it a patrol, or whatever -- would not the machine gunners of the weapons squad be carrying their .338 MMG's?

Not if there was no need for that much firepower. Stan you're assuming that a change to 6.5mm and .338 weapons over the current 5.56, 7.62, .50 weapons currently in service wouldn't result in a change in tactics. I don't see how doesn't result in a change in tactics.

[stanc]

I've just looked through lots of photos on the web of the BA on patrol and the most I've seen in any pic is about a dozen, with the numbers visible generally being 6-8. Of course, every picture won't include everyone there, but you'd think that some of them would.

Perhaps video would be better. Here's one where two platoons are on an operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYvHiDMMtOw

[stanc]

Not if there was no need for that much firepower. Stan you're assuming that a change to 6.5mm and .338 weapons over the current 5.56, 7.62, .50 weapons currently in service wouldn't result in a change in tactics. I don't see how doesn't result in a change in tactics.

I don't see that whatever effect there might be on tactics is relevant to my question. When the platoon goes on an operation, won't the platoon's MMG teams be carrying their .338 machine guns?

[Michael]

I think, maybe, some of the confusion is the differences between USA TO/TE vs USMC TO/TE. LRRPF52 posted a great pic of USA Squads, normally 9 man. USMC squads are 13 man - add a Fire Team of 4. USA platoons have a weapons squad, while USMC keeps medium weapons in the Weapons Platoon. USMC units also fight as Marine Air Ground Task Forces (MAGTF). For complete explanation, check out

http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCRP%205-12D%20Organization%20of%20Marine%20Corps%20Forces.pdf

As to size of patrolling units, a commander will base min size unit on METT-TSL. In some situations, I would conduct patrols as small as a team, in other situations it would be a platoon.

[stanc]

I think, maybe, some of the confusion is the differences between USA TO/TE vs USMC TO/TE. USA platoons have a weapons squad, while USMC keeps medium weapons in the Weapons Platoon.

Yes, that would explain the disagreement. We both thought we were on the same page, but were actually in different books.