6.5 Grendel Armor Piercing ammunition data/info...

[stanc]

I wasn't suggesting that we should use CETME-type bullets with a light alloy or plastic core (except perhaps as a tip filler), but simply that we consider adopting something like their external form (which as I understand it gave them excellent flight ballistics) and shove a steel core into it instead.

I see no reason it couldn't be done. I came across a sectional drawing of a jacketed CETME w/lead core (see attached), so presumably steel could be substituted as core material.

Question is, would such a long (really LONG!) projectile punch straight through flesh without yawing?

[JASmith]

IIRC the 20mm shaped charge and other projectiles were a DARPA proposal back in the 90's

Yeah, the idea comes up now and again. The important thing is that folks know enough to make these things viable. A lot will depend on just what the design community decides is needed.

[JASmith]

The left-hand projectile in post #78 is getting close to my own vision. The nose material, however, should be aluminum, and the rear part steel. Then stretch the bullet keeping the proportions consistent until the weight gets to where it needs to be.

[Tony Williams]

Question is, would such a long (really LONG!) projectile punch straight through flesh without yawing?

Depends on the weight distribution, I think (with the rifling probably also influencing it).

As Joe said, reversing the steel/aluminium positions on the first one would help this.

[bwaites]

Testing, I'd be happy to do, doing it to meet the strict necessities to prove what is wanted to the right people is what creates the issue,,

[JASmith]

Right on!!!

[stanc]

Stan, I was just looking at one of M. Fackler's reports, and it looks like the 7.62 bullet was not the M80, but a 150 gr FMJ...

Just to tidy up a loose end -- since Fackler noted on the original drawing that it was 7.62 NATO 150gr, it probably was steel-core M59 Ball. That does weight at 150gr, and with a one-piece steel core, it wouldn't fragment.

[JASmith]

Thanks!

[student28]

ST28:

I don't get it. The M-16 is a POS yet the Grendel is a 6.5mm M-16. Is the Grendel M-16 the same POS as the 5.56 M-16? If not, why? Grendel chambered M-16's push the pressure limits far more than the 5.56 models. I don't think there is anyone on this forum who has shot their Grendel for more than 1K rounds who hasn't sheared at least one bolt lug.

Talk about misfeeds due to gas problems, magazine problems, buffer problems -- there are probably ten pages of forum on how to get the CP magazines to function with the Grendel as well as pages of guys asking why their Grendel won't feed, extract, or eject. Way more problems than my experiences with the various issued M-16 series of rifles / carbines.

BTW what are you talking about concerning Colt vs Ruger?

LR1955

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

[student28]

ST28:
BTW what are you talking about concerning Colt vs Ruger?

LR1955

-The politics that went into the decision to go with colt over the more durrable, reliable ruger. It was a scam that the government was involved with. Family ties with colt...

[JASmith]

Some of us are overdue for a read or re-read of Pork Chop Hill by SLA Marshall.

When one contrasts their experiences using the M-1 Garand with the Iraqi Freedom weapons reliability discussions, the improvement in weapon maintainability becomes more evident. There are no weapons, not even knives or clubs, that will continue to function over time and in adverse conditions unless proper maintenance is applied.

The short book reveals several other insights that can help folks better understand how far we have traveled -- or not -- in doctrine, strategy, and tactics.

[pinzgauer]

This is worth a watch:

Daniel Defense Torture Test

I suspect many quality M4's would perform similarly.

[LRRPF52]

Some of us are overdue for a read or re-read of Pork Chop Hill by SLA Marshall.

Roger that. When one contrasts their experiences using the M-1 Garand with the Iraqi Freedom weapons reliability discussions, the improvement in weapon maintainability becomes more evident. There are no weapons, not even knives or clubs, that will continue to function over time and in adverse conditions unless proper maintenance is applied.

The short book reveals several other insights that can help folks better understand how far we have traveled -- or not -- in doctrine, strategy, and tactics.

There were some pretty horrendous reports about the M1 Garand when the Marines ran a series of battlefield suitability tests on it in comparison to the 1903 Springfield, stating the Garand's unacceptably-low reliability, sensitivity to beach sand in the action (still true of the Garand/M14/Mini-14), and an overall disdain for a semi-auto rifle's feasibility as a service rifle.

I have yet to see one single mechanical device with more than 2 articulating components that can hold up to the environmental extremes of Middle Eastern Sand Storms.

As far as the AR family needing meticulous cleaning, I would say otherwise. It really needs just a thick layer of great lubricant like Slip2000. You do not need to obsessively remove the carbon from the operating parts by any means, unless you run high volume with a suppressor. There's a great article on a BCM AR that they ran to over 31,000 rounds (3x the bolt life), and it ran almost 100%, save a misfire or two IIRC that was ammo-related. They only barely brushed off the caked carbon 2x throughout that process, and just kept lubing it with Slip2000.

You actually get a better gas seal, the more carbon builds on your gas rings, and I have yet to see a bolt that would not go into battery because of excessive carbon fouling. I've seen plenty of bolts not going into battery because of lack of lubrication...

LRRPF52

[stanc]

This is worth a watch:

Daniel Defense Torture Test

Alas, my poor ol' computer just can't handle HD videos, so I'll comment on the written summary.

"...to simulate a shrapnel blast. With the use of a 12 gauge shotgun, we will shoot the rifle with #8 Lead Bird Shot from 15 yards..."

Using #8 lead pellets seems a very inadequate simulation of shrapnel, which is far more likely to be composed of much larger pieces of steel.

"...drain any water that made it into the barrel and gas tube but holding the bolt to the rear. After a brief pause, we will chamber a round, and engage a steel target..."

Draining water from the weapon before shooting is hardly impressive. IIRC, I've seen at least one video of another (HK?) carbine being fired immediately upon removal from water.

[JASmith]

...Uh, what is the prescribed maintenance for a club?...

Linseed or other oil if it's wood and you want to keep it for awhile. A bone club would need some other kind of maintenance. Both will get brittle if allowed to dry excessively.