Shooting the Grendel in F class

[bwaites]

The final Northwest F class match of this year was held Saturday and Sunday, October 8 and 9.

I usually shoot a 7mm WSM in F class at 800,900,1000 yards and planned on doing so Saturday as well.

However, I've known for about a year that my 7mm barrel was going away on me, but hoped that by babying it, and using my Grendel GSR at shorter matches that I would be able to avoid rebarreling until this season was over.

Friday was a practice day, and while the 7WSM did not shoot as well as it had in the past, it still was shooting well enough that I thought I could at least show decently in F class.

On arrival Saturday, the weather was absolutely gorgeous. Rattlesnake is known for its wind, but the flags hung straight down as we prepared for the 800 yard relay.

The match was Palma style, with 15 shots for record. The first shooter of the relay posted a 146 with 5X, then the second posted a clean, with 11X. I shot third, and my 130 could charitably be described as a shotgun pattern. I was always on the black, but no two consecutive shots were where I expected them.

With the perfect conditions, and a proven load, I knew the barrel had gone away.

So what to do?

I had my 28" GSR in the rig, simply in case the WSM broke, and since a 20 point deficit was not really something I had any chance of making up with the calm conditions, I decided it was time to pull the Grendel and see if I could at least be respectable. If the typical Rattlesnake winds had been blowing, I would probably have stuck with the WSM, because high winds give the 7WSM some distinct advantages, and bigger leads than 20 have been overcome.

I have never shot the Grendel past 600 yards, and have had no chance to do any long range load development with it, so I went with a known quantity, Hornady factory Amax loads.

I had no chance to clean or prep the rifle at all since last having it out last weekend of the Meet and Shoot, and so it was setup and go. (We are in the middle of a house remodel, and most of my shooting stuff is stored in a moving van while we do that.)

At 900 I got walked on. The shooter who cleaned 800, started with an 8, then shot 10's and X's all the way through to shoot a 148. The whole game is different shooting the Grendel vs the WSM and having to make the adjustment on the fly was very tough.

At 1000, however, I was able to settle in a little more effectively. By that point the winds had begun to fishtail some, rapidly switching from left to right and I had to dial in 3 of left wind, only to end up switching back to 2 of right wind, and then had to go back to zero when the winds switched to following. But I wasn't the only one, and all 3 relays had issues.

In the end, I finished the relay at 129 with 5X, 3 points down from the relay winner, and with the only X's shot on the relay. I gave away some points because I flat missed the wind shifts each time they happened, concentrating too much on the mechanics and not paying attention to the flags.

I'm now convinced that I can make this a competitive 300, 500, 600 yard F class gun, allowing me to save the WSM for the longer matches. If I could shoot FTR with it, instead of F Open, I would even consider shooting it at longer ranges. I don't delude myself into thinking that it would be competitive on a bigger stage, such as Nationals, but for smaller local and even state matches I think it will play at those shorter distances, keeping costs down.

The 5 X's at that range make me think that, at least on calmer days, it would be competitive.

A better shooter could probably make the case for it far better than I, but 30 grains of powder simply can't horsepower it up to match the bigger rifles in F Open.

Just one experience for people to think on.

[LRRPF52]

Great report daddy! I find it really interesting to read Tubbs' techniques and mindset on how he shoots matches, and watching the wind flags through the spotter was one of the big things he seemed to point out, while other shooters make the mistakes of keeping records of how they shot, rather than preparing for the next one. I bet some turret decals with your dope would help out a lot, with a temp card as a secondary resource to reference and adjust from if significant differences in temps were present. Other than that, watching the scope and winds is what makes and breaks guys in long-range comps, from what I've seen. The really patient guys who know their rifles and what their bullets do at distance, and watch the conditions like a hawk. I've made the mistake in practical matches with my partner of trying to run and gun certain long-range stages, that we really should have been more patient and observant on.

[smoke13]

Interesting report. What are the specs on the Grendel you were shooting for the F Class event, if you don't mind sharing?

[bwaites]

Specs are here:

http://www.alexanderarms.com/index.php/products.html

You have to click on the numbers under where the pictue should be to see the pictures. AA is still working on their web site upgrade.

Mine looks just like this one, except mine is black. I wish this color had been available!



Bill

[sititunga]

I've heard Rattlesnake is a very challenging range. I know a bunch of Canadians who come down from BC to shoot in some of the Palma/TR matches at the range.

In my experience the Grendel will do a 1000 yds and beyond but it's very temperature sensitive at these distances. I'm looking to build a 6mm Turbo 40 i to ensure better consistency at 900 + yards. I think your right the Grendel is a great 600 - 700 yard cartridge but past that it loses its ability at being a reliable and consistent first time hitter.

[jwilson1985]

I've heard Rattlesnake is a very challenging range. I know a bunch of Canadians who come down from BC to shoot in some of the Palma/TR matches at the range.

In my experience the Grendel will do a 1000 yds and beyond but it's very temperature sensitive at these distances. I'm looking to build a 6mm Turbo 40 i to ensure better consistency at 900 + yards. I think your right the Grendel is a great 600 - 700 yard cartridge but past that it loses its ability at being a reliable and consistent first time hitter.

as in my other post yes there is a better cartridge to go beyond 1000 but i have seen a grendel and have had my own past that range with no problems and consistently 600-700 yards is 308 stuff and ive seen hits with one of them at 1546 so the fact that a grendel was made to be beter then a 308 .so why wouldnt the grendel do better ...

[LR1955]

as in my other post yes there is a better cartridge to go beyond 1000 but i have seen a grendel and have had my own past that range with no problems and consistently 600-700 yards is 308 stuff and ive seen hits with one of them at 1546 so the fact that a grendel was made to be beter then a 308 .so why wouldnt the grendel do better ...

JW:

Now the Grendel was made to be better than a .308? Up to now the statement was that it equaled a .308 but only if the Grendel shot a very high BC bullet while the .308 shot a very low BC bullet.

I shoot 155 grain Palma bullets at about 2950 fps and can push them to 3000 + fps out of a .308. What Grendel load compares to these .308 loads?

LR1955

[sititunga]

as in my other post yes there is a better cartridge to go beyond 1000 but i have seen a grendel and have had my own past that range with no problems and consistently 600-700 yards is 308 stuff and ive seen hits with one of them at 1546 so the fact that a grendel was made to be beter then a 308 .so why wouldnt the grendel do better ...

Don't get me wrong I think the Grendel is a capable cartridge, but even at the fastest velocities you can push it in colder weather (with either the 108 or 123) its a marginal performer past 900 yards and just, in my experience, runs out of puff beyond this distance.

[bwaites]

There is a big difference between a competitive cartridge and one that will get to 1000 yards. At 1000, I had no misses, but 6's. 7's and 8's aren't competitive. Under ideal wind conditions, (meaning NO wind), you might be able to play the game with the Grendel, but in the wind, its a whole different ball game.

Most of the 155 grain .308 bullets run a BC of .450-.460 or so. The 107 Sierra/108 Scenar are also around .460, so they are in the same ballpark. The problem is running that Scenar at a comparable velocity out of an AR. From my 28" barrel, I've gone over 2800 FPS without pressure signs, (for whatever that is worth in a gas gun!) but 2950 is still a reach.

IF I had some of the powder Hornady is using with the 123's, I think I could get there, because the Hornady factory ammo is shooting very close to 2750 from my barrel. But it still might not work, if that powder isn't as efficient with lighter bullets as it is with the 123's.

NOW....the caveat would be a bolt gun. Running Lapua brass, I don't think that 3000 FPS is out of reach with the 107/108, and it might even get there with 123's. If I could shoot the 123 Scenars or Sierra MK's at 3000, then I think you could play in the game with the .308's.

BUT...from a gas gun, vs. a bolt gun....not a fair match for the Grendel.

Comparable doesn't necessarily mean equal!

[jwilson1985]

mr bill thank you ...no the grendel if not a f class weapon but ..to say it runs out of puff past 900 is real incorrect ..must have a 10.5" barrel....cause when we were showing different weapons at the sniper shoot at ft chaffie a sniper there was making consistent hits a 825 with a 16" barrel ..and i know of 1600 yard shots made with one 12" group also.so its a verry capable cartridge that is underestimated ..i am not saying it is the best just that its more then a 900yard cartridge there is a reason it is super sonic to 1200 yards

[sititunga]

There is a big difference between a competitive cartridge and one that will get to 1000 yards. At 1000, I had no misses, but 6's. 7's and 8's aren't competitive. Under ideal wind conditions, (meaning NO wind), you might be able to play the game with the Grendel, but in the wind, its a whole different ball game.

Most of the 155 grain .308 bullets run a BC of .450-.460 or so. The 107 Sierra/108 Scenar are also around .460, so they are in the same ballpark. The problem is running that Scenar at a comparable velocity out of an AR. From my 28" barrel, I've gone over 2800 FPS without pressure signs, (for whatever that is worth in a gas gun!) but 2950 is still a reach.

IF I had some of the powder Hornady is using with the 123's, I think I could get there, because the Hornady factory ammo is shooting very close to 2750 from my barrel. But it still might not work, if that powder isn't as efficient with lighter bullets as it is with the 123's.

NOW....the caveat would be a bolt gun. Running Lapua brass, I don't think that 3000 FPS is out of reach with the 107/108, and it might even get there with 123's. If I could shoot the 123 Scenars or Sierra MK's at 3000, then I think you could play in the game with the .308's.

BUT...from a gas gun, vs. a bolt gun....not a fair match for the Grendel.

Comparable doesn't necessarily mean equal!

I've shot the Grendel on windless days at a 1000 yds on paper and the gun has shot possibles with multiple xs. It's an accurate round that's for sure.

[sititunga]

mr bill thank you ...no the grendel if not a f class weapon but ..to say it runs out of puff past 900 is real incorrect ..must have a 10.5" barrel....cause when we were showing different weapons at the sniper shoot at ft chaffie a sniper there was making consistent hits a 825 with a 16" barrel ..and i know of 1600 yard shots made with one 12" group also.so its a verry capable cartridge that is underestimated ..i am not saying it is the best just that its more then a 900yard cartridge there is a reason it is super sonic to 1200 yards

The 123 is only supersonic at 1200 (and only just) on very warm days. Once the temperature drops the 123s and 108s are barely supersonic at a 1000 yds. The Grendel is very capable out to about 900 yds, but it's a real lob to get the bullet there.

[RStewart]

Thanks, Bill. I believe I'll keep my Grendel limited to the 600 FPR matches and watch those flags and mirage!
Excellent AAR!

[jwilson1985]

ya im not going to enter a f class ether ...but i think some need more trigger time with one to understand the round im assuming that you are using computer to figure that it falls subsonic at that yardage and and not a cronograph ....i shot mine with snow falling back b4 i got hurt, and ya there was a small diiference but the depends on the powder you r using ...im not arguing that there is a better cartridge for those ranges im arguing your clames that its incosistant at a certain ranges what i have exp shooting at but hey maybe all the grendel ive seen shoot and as my own freaks or something who knows i cant tell your exp with them but i do know mine. with that said my next long range weapon will be a 408 loki is working on then my grendel will be a 1100 and below rifle only cause it wit was designed for as much but it will accomplish more if the shooter is capable

[Rambozo]

The question isn't whether the cartridge is capable at 1000yds, but how it compares with other cartridges out there. Personally, I'm sticking with F/TR just for this reason. I don't want to shoot against these other cartridges and rifles. I just can't afford it for one. There is also the appeal of simplicity with F/TR. Using the Grendel would put you in the open class, and you would then be at a very strong disadvantage. The grendel is weaker than the .308, and the .308 is already weak enough against those hotrod guns. Why put yourself there? I understand the ops reasoning though. Don't get me wrong, shoot what you have. I try not to let my lack of preparation stand as too much of an excuse to keep me from shooting.

But I do agree with the op. Inside of 600yds, I do think it will do well. My club holds a short range 200 and 300 yard benchie/F match, 20 shots for record each. I stick with my F/TR rifle for that too, just for the sake of consistency mostly. Honestly though, I do shoot more of those club matches than anything else. The match seems to be dominated by the .223. The .223 just shoots well, right out of the box. But, the .308 has been winning here. I know it doesn't help me much in growing as a shooter, but the .308 just shoots through the wind at these distances. Where others fight it, I've actually shot much better by just shooting straight through it. I've been doing really well in this match, but I know it's mostly just equipment advantage. I would guess that the grendel would perform similarly at such close ranges. How I do at Camp Robinson is a different story though. That's where things are tough for me and my .308. I don't get out there often.