Want to work up to 1000yd...need build advice on the reasonable for the rifle

[rtreefanatic]

"As far as finishing an 80%, I already have the parts, but maybe I will buy some well respected 80% lowers and send then to friend mentioned above as he has made thousands of them (understand their FFL info would have to go on the side and the lowers would have to go to a FFL, not a problem) and being AS9100 and ISO9100 Certified, they machine correctly as most of their machining is somewhere in the aerospace world, he probably had a program already where he could bolt in a 80% lower and finish it off as I think they are are running at least 4axis machines"

that is incorrect. you must be a atf licensed firearms MANUFACTURER NOT JUST AN FFL HOLDER to manufacture lowers for someone other than yourself. Read the atf rules on this it is very clear. If he is a licensed manufacturer then no big deal all is good. if you do your own 80% understand you can never sell it, give it away or leave it to someone. I have done many of these. time consuming but not difficult just take your time and not rush it. much cheaper and easier to just pick a 100% lower with the logo you like and build it. especially if funds are a concern. there are only around 10 forgers in the country that forge all lowers sold. most companies just engrave their company info on somebody elses lower then coat or anodize and sell it as there own.
of course this does not include the suppliers of the billet lowers. just giving a little insight.

[LRRPF52]

"As far as finishing an 80%, I already have the parts, but maybe I will buy some well respected 80% lowers and send then to friend mentioned above as he has made thousands of them (understand their FFL info would have to go on the side and the lowers would have to go to a FFL, not a problem) and being AS9100 and ISO9100 Certified, they machine correctly as most of their machining is somewhere in the aerospace world, he probably had a program already where he could bolt in a 80% lower and finish it off as I think they are are running at least 4axis machines"

that is incorrect. you must be a atf licensed firearms MANUFACTURER NOT JUST AN FFL HOLDER to manufacture lowers for someone other than yourself. Read the atf rules on this it is very clear. If he is a licensed manufacturer then no big deal all is good. if you do your own 80% understand you can never sell it, give it away or leave it to someone. I have done many of these. time consuming but not difficult just take your time and not rush it. much cheaper and easier to just pick a 100% lower with the logo you like and build it. especially if funds are a concern. there are only around 10 forgers in the country that forge all lowers sold. most companies just engrave their company info on somebody elses lower then coat or anodize and sell it as there own.
of course this does not include the suppliers of the billet lowers. just giving a little insight.

I don't think that's correct. My understanding, after reading the law, is that you can't manufacture firearms with the intent of selling them without a specific type of FFL (07). If you complete an 80% lower, then down the road give it to your daughter, wife, son, nephew, etc., it isn't regulated. If you start cranking them out and selling them, you're considered to be operating a firearms manufacturing business without a license.

[bob4432]

I don't think that's correct. My understanding, after reading the law, is that you can't manufacture firearms with the intent of selling them without a specific type of FFL (07). If you complete an 80% lower, then down the road give it to your daughter, wife, son, nephew, etc., it isn't regulated. If you start cranking them out and selling them, you're considered to be operating a firearms manufacturing business without a license.

This is my understanding also. For this project I would prefer to have the friend who is 07FFL Manf (come to think of it I think they are an 07FFL/02SOT, but that second part does not apply to me) finish a couple 80%ers up as they machine much more complex items every day.

[slip357]

I would of thought he would have better luck with the 107 gr. bullets to get a 16 inch out to 1000 yds.

[rtreefanatic]

I don't think that's correct. My understanding, after reading the law, is that you can't manufacture firearms with the intent of selling them without a specific type of FFL (07). If you complete an 80% lower, then down the road give it to your daughter, wife, son, nephew, etc., it isn't regulated. If you start cranking them out and selling them, you're considered to be operating a firearms manufacturing business without a license.

if you or your friend have the correct ffl 07 ( which is for manufacturing firearms)that is correct it can change hands. once you complete an 80% yourself( without ffl07) it is now considered a firearm and its yours alone and can not transfer to any one. I called the atf on this before I started doing my own for the very reason you state about passing down when I die or whatever and was told "its only non regulated while in the 80% state." you can make all of the non nfa regulated firearms you want to for yourself but not others not even family members according to atf if you give it to someone its is technically considered ownership transferred. I would hate to see someone get in trouble because they don't understand the law or at least how ATF sees it. that's how they explained it to me anyway.

[NugginFutz]

And the ATF would track or identify such a transfer... how?

[LRRPF52]

if you or your friend have the correct ffl 07 ( which is for manufacturing firearms)that is correct it can change hands. once you complete an 80% yourself( without ffl07) it is now considered a firearm and its yours alone and can not transfer to any one. I called the atf on this before I started doing my own for the very reason you state about passing down when I die or whatever and was told "its only non regulated while in the 80% state." you can make all of the non nfa regulated firearms you want to for yourself but not others not even family members according to atf if you give it to someone its is technically considered ownership transferred. I would hate to see someone get in trouble because they don't understand the law or at least how ATF sees it. that's how they explained it to me anyway.

If you call the ATF and ask for answers, you'll often get an ignoramus empty suit and empty skull full of mush on the other end of the line who doesn't know the first thing about Firearms Technology Branch or ATF specific "rulings", let alone the Gun Control Act of 1968 and USC on what constitutes a firearm, serial number marking requirements for manufacturers versus home-made firearms, or even the difference between a magazine and a clip. In this case, we're talking about ATF Rule 2010-10 and 2015-1 of 02JAN2015 .

Most ATF personnel are not even close to being familiar with firearms, and are at best generally familiar from an LE career for the ones that applied for Federal coming out of State/local LE looking for decent pay and benefits that couldn't land on FBI or DEA in the Federal Employment schedule. Many got fast-tracked into the Federal employment system because of identity politics versus merit over applicants who were far more qualified. There are many reasons why the ATF is the lead Federal Agency in Equal Opportunity Complaints and unresolved EO cases, since you have a mash of the older leadership with many new employees who never should have been hired because they are barely literate.

If you call up the ATF, you will often get answers that directly contradict GCA 1968 and US Code, as well as ATF extrajudicial/unconstitutional "rulings" that are issued by FTB and the Acting Director.

For example, if you thoroughly read through ATF Rule 2015-1, it addresses basically 2 main trends in people seeking more freedom via:

* Having gunsmiths or FFLs finish 80% receivers for them (specifically prohibited)
* Having business sponsor 80% finishing parties with their in-house CNC parties (specifically prohibited)

The ATF's freedom-exceeded meter went off, so they issued ATF Rule 2015-1 as a result. Nowhere in the ruling does it even discuss transfer of a firearm frame by an individual with their family members or others, because this has been legal behavior since the Nation was founded.

I can see how someone in one of the ATF offices would not only be unaware of their own agency's rulings (because ATF has a boatload of other rulings on alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives), but because of the general status of applicants nowadays who are functionally illiterate and without true education. If a person of such mental capacity answers a random call on the fly based on their limited brain function and literacy, it is purely their own uninformed opinion.

And the ATF would track or identify such a transfer... how?

The same way they wouldn't track a home-built firearm, which has been the law of the land since the US was founded. There literally is no Federal law that I can find that prohibits these activities. There are plenty of rules prohibiting you from going to your buddy with a machine shop, a gunsmith, or any other entity besides a manufacturer with an 07 FFL (who will serialize and transfer it via 4473), and having them complete an 80% for you. You are prohibited from even renting their equipment to do the work yourself on their premises. This is why the Ghostgunner was conceived by Cody Wilson.

There is no need for an individual to call them when you can openly see their own rulings. Let's get the thread back on track and stick with OP's topic.