So I'm a bit confused re: Grendel Accuracy Potential

[Lemonaid]

Klem, thanks for the input. I realize that an AR won't shoot like a bolt gun. I mentioned it only in reply to Grayfox's question of a new gun shooting sub-MOA out of the box. Your reasoning on the cost difference of a top tier barrel makes a lot of sense, but I'd have trouble springing for a $700 Bartlien. Do you have an opinion on the Wilson Super Sniper? Would you consider it a Tier 2 barrel or somewhere in between Top Tier and Tier 2?

Consult with forum member Mel, he has has some exceptional results with his Wilson barrel. https://www.65grendel.com/forum/show...hlight=mel+ppv

[BCHunter]

So part of the problem on forums is peoples defintion of terms, what is acceptable accuracy to you may not be the same as Klem's. This is what contributes to the discrepancy you see in accuracy. Add the other factors of shooters skill, build quality, ammo consistency, environment conditions etc. and you have a lot of variables that will affect peoples experiences.

you want an accuracy ar15 for 200 yards in and capable to 600. Is this for self fullfillment or competion? Local fun shoot or regional match? Do you want 1 moa at 200 or all the way out to 600. The farther out the more variables the more you need to spend to reduce those variables.

Most guys think if they shoot one group under an inch at 100 yards they have a sub MOA gun,...when actually that gun needs to do it every time at any distance to truly be considered a sub-moa rifle.

I think your over thinking this a little too much,...the more you spend the higher proabability you will get a great gun,...the question is how much are you willing to spend and what is that balance of cost to accuracy that is acceptable to you.

The thing I love most about this forum,...is there is no BS over hype of this cartridge,...it is a fun capable cartridge define your goals, and members will do there best to give you guidance.

[A5BLASTER]

A5, do you have an opinion on the Wilson Super Sniper 22in. barrel. Looks like a great buy at $304. I don't think I can justify a $700+ Bartlien, but who knows?

I think it's a fine rack grade barrel from the reports I have seen.

[JASmith]

[DVDVC]

I won't claim to consistently shoot 0.3 MOA with any gun, it just happens every once in a while. That was accomplished with my reloads of 175 gr. SMKs over Varget, Federal cases, Federal GM primers. So I will be reloading 6.5 Grendel when the time comes.

[DVDVC]

No doubt I will have to grow into any new rifles potential, but since my marksmanship skills are an unknown to you, to answer the question you have to assume I can shoot. I mean it's not like I'm going to hold you responsible if I spend top dollar but can't shoot for shinola because I'm an Elmer Fud. I accept full responsibility for my marksmanship or lack thereof.

[grayfox]

[Klem]

I won't claim to consistently shoot 0.3 MOA with any gun, it just happens every once in a while. That was accomplished with my reloads of 175 gr. SMKs over Varget, Federal cases, Federal GM primers. So I will be reloading 6.5 Grendel when the time comes.

DV,

Your occasional 0.3MOA is out of a Savage bolt gun, but sounds perfectly reasonable. You won't get that in an AR15 however. Even with the best brand of barrel the AR still is to light, too flexible, too narrow and rounded in the handguard to maximise the barrel's potential. It's not a 16lb monster with 3-inches wide of flat bag-riding stock on a $2K Jeb rest, loading single rounds through the ejection port because that makes the action even stiffer. It's a cheap, mass produced minimalist semi-auto. The AR15 is a handicap, so if group size is important why handicap it further with a rack barrel?

[DVDVC]

DV,

Your occasional 0.3MOA is out of a Savage bolt gun, but sounds perfectly reasonable. You won't get that in an AR15 however. Even with the best brand of barrel the AR still is to light, too flexible, too narrow and rounded in the handguard to maximise the barrel's potential. It's not a 16lb monster with 3-inches wide of flat bag-riding stock on a $2K Jeb rest, loading single rounds through the ejection port because that makes the action even stiffer. It's a cheap, mass produced minimalist semi-auto. The AR15 is a handicap, so if group size is important why handicap it further with a rack barrel?

Good point. Just to be clear, I never expected any AR, of even the highest quality parts, to ever equal the accuracy of a bolt action target gun. The question of "How accurate can an AR be?", regardless of caliber, has been a question in my mind long before I contemplated a 6.5 Grendel build. So I don't have unrealistic expectation of extreme accuracy from this or any other build. I'm just pondering what is a reasonable expectation and what does it take to get there?

[riuma]

I've got a friend who installed an Odin barrel, etc, on his 6.5 Grendel build. Shot Black into a bug hole the first time out and continues to do so. (My Odin barreled 5.56 cal, 14.5" pistol will shoot as well as I can hold so they are worth a look...). The truth is that the Grendel is an inherently accurate cartridge. If you're not getting accuracy, it's not the cartridge at fault. Is an AR capable of good accuracy? Look at Alexander Arms's list of pet loads. All the group averages are less than an inch -many much smaller than an inch.~Riuma

[0311B]

This is exactly the question that I've been wanting to ask as well. I put together a decent upper, but I'm getting very poor accuracy so far with Hornady Black and Hornady Custom. The Black ELD-Ms average 2.75" at 100 yards, the Custom SSTs much worse, so much so that I didn't bother measuring them.

I would try different ammo, but I can't find other ammo. I built this upper in the middle of a "pandemic" and an election cycle, so.. I'm saving brass and will be developing loads as soon as I can pick up some small rifle primers and powder.

I'm blaming it on the barrel, a Sanders Armory 24" Stainless 5R 1/8. I wonder if it's a whippy barrel? Did they send me a lemon? If I have it chopped down would it stiffen up? Like Klem said, is a long heavy barrel on an AR15 upper a mismatched pair? The receiver is 7075 Aero.

I didn't bed the barrel into the receiver, but if the barrel I bought is a lemon, I'm glad that I didn't. When I get one that shoots well I'll bed that.

[Klem]

I've been getting an average of 0.75MOA for 4-rd groups out of a Lilja barrel; bench-rested on no-wind days.

10x4rd gps for 100NBT/8208 work-up = 0.71MOA
10x4rd gps for 100NBT/BENCHMARK work-up = 0.78MOA
10x4rd gps for 120NBT/H4895 work-up = 0.72MOA

I'm interested to hear how Lilja compares with the Bartleins.

[LR1955]

This is exactly the question that I've been wanting to ask as well. I put together a decent upper, but I'm getting very poor accuracy so far with Hornady Black and Hornady Custom. The Black ELD-Ms average 2.75" at 100 yards, the Custom SSTs much worse, so much so that I didn't bother measuring them.

I would try different ammo, but I can't find other ammo. I built this upper in the middle of a "pandemic" and an election cycle, so.. I'm saving brass and will be developing loads as soon as I can pick up some small rifle primers and powder.

I'm blaming it on the barrel, a Sanders Armory 24" Stainless 5R 1/8. I wonder if it's a whippy barrel? Did they send me a lemon? If I have it chopped down would it stiffen up? Like Klem said, is a long heavy barrel on an AR15 upper a mismatched pair? The receiver is 7075 Aero.

I didn't bed the barrel into the receiver, but if the barrel I bought is a lemon, I'm glad that I didn't. When I get one that shoots well I'll bed that.

0311B

Bedding a barrel won't be the miracle you think. Installing it well makes the difference. Bedding can improve but if you used a good barrel and installed it well, there is no reason why the rifle won't shoot well with any reasonably good load and bullet.

I probably wouldn't trust this Sanders barrel to shoot everything well but it will probably shoot some loads well. I doubt it will give real match grade performance but holding around a minute with the right loads ought to be reasonable.

You assembled it from parts. Should be OK but you ought to check your work again to be sure it wasn't something you did.

Then you can check your sighting system that it works and is secured properly.

Then you can check yourself by having someone who you know to be a better marksman than you to test out the rifle and some loads.

There are volumes on the Forum about guys troubleshooting poor accuracy. Very few times has it been a rifle or carbine not made well. Most often it is equally spread between poor quality ammunition, poor marksmanship, and lousy barrels. Shooters who lack experience also tend to have exaggerated expectations of performance.

Klem's averages are pretty much in line with most guys who shoot competitively and thus shoot thousands of rounds a year with an eye on raw accuracy.

LR55

[Mesa1978]

My 24" Lilja on a PF upper and bolt/bcg, is a 3/4 MOA barrel as well. Occasionally, a 1/2 MOA, but that is an exception. 5 round groups. If I want a one hole gun @100 yards, I'll use a Savage bolt gun or a TRG in 6.5 Creedmoor.

[DVDVC]

I finally finished my 6.5 Grendel upper build. I lapped the Aero Precision M4E receiver, bedded the JP 22 in. heavy barrel. Scope was a 3.5-10x Leupold I had lying around. I'll put a higher magnification scope on it eventually. Using an ADM 20 MOA base had me shooting way high at first so it took several shots to get sighted in dead on at 100yd.s After only 20 rounds shot through the barrel, I shot a 0.86 inch 5 shot group with Hornady Black factory ammo. I have Redding National Match dies on backorder, can't wait to start reloading for it!