Bullet holes and group shape tell the tale

[jasper2408]

This video features Jack Neary, who is a Hall of Fame benchrest shooter, telling how to tell what your rifle needs by the shape of the group and/or the shape of the bullet holes. Some good info here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQsGYONTNps

[Sinclair]

O.K., watched the video. In another video it is suggested to stop weighing the charges, measuring cases, etc. is a waste of time. Other steps are more important, what are some of the hordes' views on this.

[LR1955]

O.K., watched the video. In another video it is suggested to stop weighing the charges, measuring cases, etc. is a waste of time. Other steps are more important, what are some of the hordes' views on this.

I would weigh charges when I was using a poor powder measure and longer stick powder. I bought a Harrell measure about 25 years ago and use Varget for most of my competitive loads (non Grendel). Yes, if a guy weighs each charge he will find that even with a Harrell he will have variance. The question is what does it mean for his purposes? We use electronic targets for prone competition now and they will give velocity and SD at the target. Not perfect but a good enough device to make decisions. Throwing charges into the brass with the Harrell measure my SD's at 600 were under 10 fps. I know that somewhere within those sixty or eighty plus rounds that probably six or eight varied more than + - .2 grains with at least three being a half grain more or less than average. After shooting three very good strings prone unsupported with an optic, I sure couldn't tell which ones had what I most certainly believed a half grain more or less than average weight. Shots went to my calls and the SD was fine for my purposes.

I also tried the brass weighing and segregating. Not even the people who do it know for sure if it matters. I think it is an OCD sort of thing unless you use different makes of brass. I wouldn't expect consistent performance if I mixed Lake City 7.62 with Winchester .308 brass.

Use good components of brass and bullet. Find a decent and consistent load of primers and powder. Use a decent powder measure and dies that are of high quality to ensure case and cartridge run out are minimal. And a press that is solid and whose ram is in alignment with the die. Thats why guys like using the Co Ax presses. Die floats a little and self aligns with the brass. No need to measure each charge, particularly if using ball powders. Chances are a decent measure varies less than the average electronic reloading scale.

The part that requires a lot of work if someone wants to be a very good precision rifleman is the actual doing part. The least amount of time spent handloading the better.

LR-55

[Sinclair]

LR-55, thanks for your take on my question. I assumed that the maker of the video was trying to say that same o same o would average out over time. I wish now that I had bought my reloading equipment one item at a time as I could save up for the "best" available, like the Co Ax press. Now I am stuck with a hodgepodge of good enough tools and still have spent a considerable amount of money. Live and learn, especially you newbies just getting into reloading!

[jasper2408]

The part of the video I thought was informative was where he was talking about how to tell if the bullet you are shooting is being stabilized or not. He says that if the you are getting a round top and a square bottom on the bullet holes (looks like the bottom of the hole tore the paper in a square) then it is not stabilized. I can understand that. He says you need more powder in that instance. He also stated that if you have too much powder then the bullet holes will be real tiny. I have never seen the tiny bullet holes part but he says you need to cut your powder back until the holes become caliber size again. He says that the bullet is over stabilized. Not sure I understand how the bullet holes can get smaller, unless they are losing some of the jacket, than the caliber size but that is what he said.

[Klem]

It's an interesting insight into Bench Rest shooting.

The idea you have to up your load as the day wears on and water displaces out of the powder shows what is required to win when all the guns are so precise. Plus you have the luxury of loading at the firing line. I like his technique of loading long and holding the gun upright and picking the case out to feel the resistance of the lands. As the throat wears I imagine he would be doing this regularly.

We used to get visitors to F Class matches who never came back because they thought there was no challenge. They'd turn up, fire a few shots of someones carefully loaded ammunition, hit a bullseye with the gun all rested and wonder where the challenge was. The ability to load and read wind completely lost on them. But in the video the sorts of things this guy worries about would be almost wasted on an AR Grendel. No disrespect to his Bench Rest status but it would interesting to see him shoot a practical gun unsupported.

[jasper2408]

But in the video the sorts of things this guy worries about would be almost wasted on an AR Grendel. No disrespect to his Bench Rest status but it would interesting to see him shoot a practical gun unsupported.

In the interest of debate, Mr. Neary would probably be the first to tell you that he is not recommending info for an AR and the video is not about his ability to shoot other types/designs of rifles. He is offering his experience on shooting benchrest only with bolt action rifles. I think that his powder info could be applied to any 6.5 Grendel bolt action and it may also work on ARs. I have no info to support that though and he did not state that his info would work on an AR or a Grendel. I am the one that thought it might be applied to a 6.5 Grendel bolt action rifle by someone that might want to try it. The great thing is no one has to use any info from the video or even watch it.

[37L1]

It's all information to do with what you will.

I find it interesting and informative.

Thanks for posting.

[jasper2408]

All of the videos that Erik Cortina has out lately interviewing all of these top shooters in their disciplines is about sharing what they know. Most of the people he is interviewing have done a lot of testing for top bullet, powder, and die companies. What these people have discovered in their testing is used to make better products for the regular shooters.

The latest video with EC interviewing F Class John is not about shooting secrets but about when you can't seem to get a load working and you ask for help and then good shooters give you advice and you don't take it.

[Bjorn]

He also stated that if you have too much powder then the bullet holes will be real tiny. I have never seen the tiny bullet holes part but he says you need to cut your powder back until the holes become caliber size again. He says that the bullet is over stabilized. Not sure I understand how the bullet holes can get smaller, unless they are losing some of the jacket, than the caliber size but that is what he said.

I have been pondering that as well. Seems like that would violate the laws of physics to have a hole smaller than the bullet that passes through it. But, that guy is clearly the bench-rest expert.

[Klem]

I have been pondering that as well. Seems like that would violate the laws of physics to have a hole smaller than the bullet that passes through it. But, that guy is clearly the bench-rest expert.

I agree... it's probably Bench Rest jargon.

He might be saying that when the bullet is stable the hole is exactly the diameter of the bullet. But when not it is fractionally more oval as it yaws ever so slightly through the hole. Those clear plastic calibre checkers used by scoring officials in Prac Pistol might be one way of seeing the difference.

Or he might be referring to the total size of the group being one hole. Someone as good as he would be shooting single holes groups at close range. I have seen frames for a system of scrolling paper behind Bench Rest targets. While the front target looks like one hole they also count the separated holes in the moving paper to make sure the competitor did not fire a few at the target and then a couple deliberately off target. The scrolling paper stops cheats claiming they shot through the same hole.

[jasper2408]

I went back and listened to what he said the bullet hole looks like on one that is over stabilized. He says that the way the paper is cut on the hole looks like a torx screwdriver end. The paper doesn't fold back properly and the hole that is left is very small. Guess I didn't pay attention as good as I thought.


Edit: I went back thru my targets and found a bullet hole that might be what he is talking about.

Bullet hole.PNG

[jasper2408]

When I started this thread I was thinking that I could use the info from Mr. Nearys video so that when I looked at my targets, especially ladder targets, that I might be able to see whether my bullets were being properly stabilized and how that might be related to the accuracy nodes.

OK since then I found this video of how a bullet yaws in flight, in real time, plus watched several others by Bryan Litz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9SCbCBHaY

One thing that I noticed in the video was that the bullet nose didn't really stabilize until it got out to 130-200yds.

At this point I am glad that I know this info but I realize that I could be on the path to squeezing all of the fun out of just going out and shooting and finding out that "that's a pretty good group" is good enough.

Anyway I am now putting the last shovel full of dirt on that rabbit hole.

Now you can say "I told you so".

[LR1955]

When I started this thread I was thinking that I could use the info from Mr. Nearys video so that when I looked at my targets, especially ladder targets, that I might be able to see whether my bullets were being properly stabilized and how that might be related to the accuracy nodes.

OK since then I found this video of how a bullet yaws in flight, in real time, plus watched several others by Bryan Litz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9SCbCBHaY

One thing that I noticed in the video was that the bullet nose didn't really stabilize until it got out to 130-200yds.

At this point I am glad that I know this info but I realize that I could be on the path to squeezing all of the fun out of just going out and shooting and finding out that "that's a pretty good group" is good enough.

Anyway I am now putting the last shovel full of dirt on that rabbit hole.

Now you can say "I told you so".

JAS:

The guy is a bench rest competitor and those guys will do anything to get better performance. Even if what they are doing does absolutely nothing. If it doesn't hurt performance then there is a chance it may help for that one shot needed to win a major title.

Yes, bullets yaw and pitch until they get to a hundred yards or so. The longer bullets probably 150 to 200. I saw some tests done on some small arms ammunition using spark photography at Aberdeen many years ago. You would be astounded at just how much they yaw and pitch until they stabilize. That's one reason why many of us do not put much faith in 100 yard grouping. 200, yes. 300 yards ideal.

Many years ago bench rest guys said that if the group strung vertically you didn't have enough powder. Horizontally and you had too much. I actually think this is more true than false. And would rather make a decision based on this than how small a hole is in a piece of paper. Paper tends to close up after the bullet passes through and if the paper has a high moisture content, the hole will be smaller than if the paper was dry. So I guess a guy can take a hydrometer or some sort and start recording how much moisture was in the paper. That is exactly what a bench rest shooter would do if he thought it meant a smaller group.

No big deal. Bench rest shooters have their own ways of doing things that work for them and are pretty much unnecessary for guys who go out and shoot some steel or hunt.

If I were trying to find a load for one of the cartridges I shoot, I would go to a web site like ours that specializes in that cartridge for my specific use and search to find out what the most common load is for the bullet and powder I want to use. Most likely there is one load plus or minus a tenth or two grains with the bullet I want to use that most of the shooters have found to be the best load. That is where I would start my load development and I bet that I would end up with the same load plus or minus .2 grains.

LR-55

[jasper2408]

JAS:

The guy is a bench rest competitor and those guys will do anything to get better performance. Even if what they are doing does absolutely nothing. If it doesn't hurt performance then there is a chance it may help for that one shot needed to win a major title.

Yes, bullets yaw and pitch until they get to a hundred yards or so. The longer bullets probably 150 to 200. I saw some tests done on some small arms ammunition using spark photography at Aberdeen many years ago. You would be astounded at just how much they yaw and pitch until they stabilize. That's one reason why many of us do not put much faith in 100 yard grouping. 200, yes. 300 yards ideal.

Many years ago bench rest guys said that if the group strung vertically you didn't have enough powder. Horizontally and you had too much. I actually think this is more true than false. And would rather make a decision based on this than how small a hole is in a piece of paper. Paper tends to close up after the bullet passes through and if the paper has a high moisture content, the hole will be smaller than if the paper was dry. So I guess a guy can take a hydrometer or some sort and start recording how much moisture was in the paper. That is exactly what a bench rest shooter would do if he thought it meant a smaller group.

No big deal. Bench rest shooters have their own ways of doing things that work for them and are pretty much unnecessary for guys who go out and shoot some steel or hunt.

If I were trying to find a load for one of the cartridges I shoot, I would go to a web site like ours that specializes in that cartridge for my specific use and search to find out what the most common load is for the bullet and powder I want to use. Most likely there is one load plus or minus a tenth or two grains with the bullet I want to use that most of the shooters have found to be the best load. That is where I would start my load development and I bet that I would end up with the same load plus or minus .2 grains.

LR-55

Thanks for your input and very good advice.