Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards

[stokesrj]

Thanks for the positive feedback guys. I guess this topic kind of touched a nerve.

The range I regularly shoot at goes up to 300 yards.

You guys out West who can just pull off the road and start shooting at 1,000 yards don't know how lucky you are.

I had better luck with the Hornady's than other brands at 300. The AMax'es were just a lot cheaper and did great at 300.

At longer ranges, though, the Lapua 123 Scenars may well do better. Everything I've heard about them would indicate that will be the case. They shoot fine at 300 yards, so the superior BC etc. should really show at 1,000 yards.

Since you only load one round at a time with F-Class shooting, I'll have more flexibility with C.O.L. too.

I've also been working up some loads with CFE 223 powder and have been getting about 60 fps better with the 123 AMax than my regular load of 30.5 grains of AA2520.

I haven't finished tinkering with that load yet, though, so I'll be curious to see how it performs at longer ranges.

I'll be curious to see if the combination of the 123 Scenar, CFE 22, and longer C.O.L. will be a significant improvement.

When it comes time to re-barrel, I'll be looking for a 24 if I keep up this type of shooting.

RR

Hi RR,
I've shot both the 123 Sceenar and the 123 A-Max at 1000 yards, I really couldn't tell much difference. Guys in the pits said they were both still supersonic so at least I know they are above 1,150 fps or so. Both loads would hold the 9 ring with most in the ten if it was relatively calm.
I shoot at Butner a few times a year but across the course from a sling haven't shot the long range match there. I just shot the Eastern Creedmoor along with my son in May and we both did well.

Did you run into my friend John Friguglietti, he would have been shooting a Tubb 2K in 6XC? I know he shot the match you were in. It sounds like you had fun and that is after all why we do this.

Bob

[RangerRick]

Hi RR,
I've shot both the 123 Sceenar and the 123 A-Max at 1000 yards, I really couldn't tell much difference. Guys in the pits said they were both still supersonic so at least I know they are above 1,150 fps or so. Both loads would hold the 9 ring with most in the ten if it was relatively calm.
I shoot at Butner a few times a year but across the course from a sling haven't shot the long range match there. I just shot the Eastern Creedmoor along with my son in May and we both did well.

Did you run into my friend John Friguglietti, he would have been shooting a Tubb 2K in 6XC? I know he shot the match you were in. It sounds like you had fun and that is after all why we do this.

Bob

Hi Bob,

I may have bumped into him, but I'm such a newbie to the group that I don't know many of the guys yet. I saw a guy with a Tubb 2K but didn't meet him. That may have been him.

One of he guys pointed out that of the 3 other guys in the relays on my lane, one was sponsored by Berger Bullets, another was the club champ, and the third guy had beat them on occasion. Talk about intimidating!

But they were great guys and I learned a lot.

Like you say, having fun is what it's all about. Thanks for the input on the AMax vs the 123 Scenar.

RR

[ChellieWiles]

I used different increments and had different results, but the specifics aren't too important to the data I've taken myself under my tolerances. An interesting thing I noticed from shooting on the east coast and west coast is max load variances. I figured that in Wyoming, the air was dryer so the propellant burned faster than it would on the east coast where our air has about 65% humidity so the load is a bit "damper" slowing down the burn rate. This is the only reason I can think of as to why my 5.56 loads a few years ago were so far off (maybe 3 grains due to overpressure with some powders) than what I had previously recorded.

[Drifter]

Hi Guys,

How significant a factor is neck tension in long range shooting? How do you control for that other than using bushing dies?

Some of these F-Class guys anneal after every three shots to keep the necks uniform.


RR

RR- I don't shoot competitively, haven't shot past 600 yards, and have no experience with annealing.

That being said, I do recognize the significance of consistent neck tension and its influence on accuracy. Reducing Grendel neck diameter 0.010"+ consistently in one step is a lot to ask. My approach is to use a standard full-length resizing die (Forster), followed by a Redding Competition Neck Bushing Die in 6mm PPC. This method would allow you to leave your current sizing die as is, and use the neck die for the finishing touch. I've used both Wilson and Redding bushings (Redding is undersized more so than Wilson), and prefer the Wilson since they seem to have a tad of flare at the bottom, avoiding the potential of a ring near the base of the neck. Also, I often see accuracy enhancements using a very light crimp with the Lee FCD.

Again, great post to open this thread. I might have to follow in your footsteps one of these days and visit the Butner facility.

[RangerRick]

I used different increments and had different results, but the specifics aren't too important to the data I've taken myself under my tolerances. An interesting thing I noticed from shooting on the east coast and west coast is max load variances. I figured that in Wyoming, the air was dryer so the propellant burned faster than it would on the east coast where our air has about 65% humidity so the load is a bit "damper" slowing down the burn rate. This is the only reason I can think of as to why my 5.56 loads a few years ago were so far off (maybe 3 grains due to overpressure with some powders) than what I had previously recorded.

Interesting. I wonder if altitude could play a part? I wouldn't think so, but maybe pushing a lower mass of air out of the barrel affects things.

How do the 108 Scenars perform in the wind at 1,000? I would think the heavier bullets would do better.

RR

[RangerRick]

RR- I don't shoot competitively, haven't shot past 600 yards, and have no experience with annealing.

That being said, I do recognize the significance of consistent neck tension and its influence on accuracy. Reducing Grendel neck diameter 0.010"+ consistently in one step is a lot to ask. My approach is to use a standard full-length resizing die (Forster), followed by a Redding Competition Neck Bushing Die in 6mm PPC. This method would allow you to leave your current sizing die as is, and use the neck die for the finishing touch. I've used both Wilson and Redding bushings (Redding is undersized more so than Wilson), and prefer the Wilson since they seem to have a tad of flare at the bottom, avoiding the potential of a ring near the base of the neck. Also, I often see accuracy enhancements using a very light crimp with the Lee FCD.

Again, great post to open this thread. I might have to follow in your footsteps one of these days and visit the Butner facility.

I guess the idea is to make sure the pressure in the case is always the same before the bullet starts moving to improve consistency?

You'll definitely have to shoot at Butner if you get a chance. Don't worry about not being a competition shooter. They love to have folks out there and there are 40 lanes on the range so crowding is not an issue.

If you decide to go, give me a shout and I'll try to link up with you there.

RR

[RangerRick]

RR- I don't shoot competitively, haven't shot past 600 yards, and have no experience with annealing.

That being said, I do recognize the significance of consistent neck tension and its influence on accuracy. Reducing Grendel neck diameter 0.010"+ consistently in one step is a lot to ask. My approach is to use a standard full-length resizing die (Forster), followed by a Redding Competition Neck Bushing Die in 6mm PPC. This method would allow you to leave your current sizing die as is, and use the neck die for the finishing touch. I've used both Wilson and Redding bushings (Redding is undersized more so than Wilson), and prefer the Wilson since they seem to have a tad of flare at the bottom, avoiding the potential of a ring near the base of the neck. Also, I often see accuracy enhancements using a very light crimp with the Lee FCD.

Again, great post to open this thread. I might have to follow in your footsteps one of these days and visit the Butner facility.

I guess the idea is to make sure the pressure in the case is always the same before the bullet starts moving to improve consistency?

You'll definitely have to shoot at Butner if you get a chance. Don't worry about not being a competition shooter. They love to have folks out there and there are 40 lanes on the range so crowding is not an issue.

If you decide to go, give me a shout and I'll try to link up with you there.

RR

[Drifter]

I guess the idea is to make sure the pressure in the case is always the same before the bullet starts moving to improve consistency?

You'll definitely have to shoot at Butner if you get a chance. Don't worry about not being a competition shooter. They love to have folks out there and there are 40 lanes on the range so crowding is not an issue.

If you decide to go, give me a shout and I'll try to link up with you there.

RR

Neck tension is somewhat complex, with many variables coming into play. Check this link for info:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/neck-tension-not-just-bushing-size/

And thanks; I'll definitely keep Butner on my list. If there's anything in particular coming up on their schedule that seems appropriate for a Grendel-shooting outsider, please keep me in mind and maybe we can get together there. I have a feeling that I would really enjoy it. (I'm guessing that it's a 2-hour drive for me to get there.)

[Von Gruff]

That is a very interesting read Drifter and makes a thoughtfull difference in what can seem an ordinary load procedure. Thanks for the post. great stuff here as always.

Von Gruff.

[jwilson1985]

glad to know im not the only one shooting beyond 600-1000 yards with 108s

[jwilson1985]

Interesting. I wonder if altitude could play a part? I wouldn't think so, but maybe pushing a lower mass of air out of the barrel affects things.

How do the 108 Scenars perform in the wind at 1,000? I would think the heavier bullets would do better.

RR

the 108 scenars i use have had the meplet trimmed and repointed so i will start by saying that they are not your out of the box 108s. The 108s for me group a bit tighter out to 650is compared to 123 but out of my rifle i will say that the groups are very tight anyway.Out to 1000 i havent measured groups but have still hit steel.past 1000 i try to stay with 123s

[ccole3]

How far off was Hornadys table? I was thinkin there numbers were with a 24" barrel.