Failure to go into battery

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  • LRRPF52
    Super Moderator
    • Sep 2014
    • 8619

    #16
    Your extractor is grinding against the Inside Diameter of the 2 o'clock barrel extension lug, and you can clearly see the interference.

    Bill Alexander said this was one of the issues he encountered when setting up production specs for .50 Beowulf and 6.5 Grendel, since we are trying to get an articulating bolt/extractor/barrel extension profile meant for the smaller case head of the 5.56 to work with a larger case head.

    Things that would never show up with a 5.56 rifle even with tolerances going out of a certain range, like they do when heat-treating the extensions after the feed ramps are broached, will show up for larger case head cartridges if you don't control the processes and tolerances more closely.

    In the case of the larger case head cartridges from a production standpoint, you have to make sure that the inner diameter of the barrel extension lugs does not waver on you with the heat treat outside of a very tight range. This is something the home builder can't really control and does not even have the tooling to measure.



    Extractor snap-over during going into battery is part of the dynamic mechanical engineering that gets overlooked in a market where people have struggled to even correctly name the static dimensional differences on Grendel bolts, chambers, etc. One of the biggest enemies to achieving smooth snap-over is the presence of the O ring around the extractor spring. There is already a buffer inside the extractor spring meant to assist consistent spring tension under full auto fire. The O ring was added as a band-aid after SOCOM was having FTExtract malfs with M4A1s and KAC QD suppressors, as well as Mk.18s running suppressed.

    The AR15 should operate smoothly within the ideal cyclic rate range with a relaxed extractor, and not need an O Ring to help with extraction on guns that are out of timing/extracting early during residual case pressure/obturation in the chamber. Those issues should be addressed at the source (gas system).
    Last edited by LRRPF52; 02-27-2020, 06:30 PM.
    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

    www.AR15buildbox.com

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    • Highbrow
      Bloodstained
      • Feb 2019
      • 34

      #17
      I had similar issues with my 6mmAR match rifle until I dehorned the extractor.

      Comment

      • mighty_mace
        Unwashed
        • Apr 2019
        • 8

        #18
        I ran into a similar situation on a valkyrie build where the stripped upper I was using was out of spec. After replacing said upper, all is well.

        Comment

        • NugginFutz
          Chieftain
          • Aug 2013
          • 2622

          #19
          LR55 - I would be hesitant to cycle the action of an AR without the firing pin installed. The firing pin is what keeps the cam pin correctly oriented, and without it, the cam pin can rotate at the worst of times, creating a locked bolt condition.

          ETA: Here is a link to a thread where this issue is discussed in detail due to some unfortunate who made the mistake of function checking their AR without a firing pin.

          [ARCHIVED THREAD] - bolt stuck, firing pin out, need help
          Last edited by NugginFutz; 02-29-2020, 04:01 PM. Reason: Added explanitory link
          If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

          Comment

          • LR1955
            Super Moderator
            • Mar 2011
            • 3358

            #20
            Originally posted by NugginFutz View Post
            LR55 - I would be hesitant to cycle the action of an AR without the firing pin installed. The firing pin is what keeps the cam pin correctly oriented, and without it, the cam pin can rotate at the worst of times, creating a locked bolt condition.

            ETA: Here is a link to a thread where this issue is discussed in detail due to some unfortunate who made the mistake of function checking their AR without a firing pin.

            [ARCHIVED THREAD] - bolt stuck, firing pin out, need help
            You are correct.

            I did not think through it well enough. Probably because the only out of battery firings I have ever experienced have been with a Grendel and those are real eye openers when they happen.

            Thank you for correcting me on this technical issue.

            LR55

            Comment

            • Growler
              Warrior
              • Jan 2019
              • 162

              #21
              LR55,
              Did this happen with a low mass carrier? Non-mil primers?
              Thanks

              Comment

              • LR1955
                Super Moderator
                • Mar 2011
                • 3358

                #22
                Originally posted by Growler View Post
                LR55,
                Did this happen with a low mass carrier? Non-mil primers?
                Thanks
                Growler.

                Nope -- standard mil spec bolt carrier, Grendel bolt, Lapua brass, CCI 450 primers.

                No one was able to figure out why it happened so it remains a mystery.

                LR55
                Last edited by LR1955; 03-01-2020, 12:41 PM.

                Comment

                • BluntForceTrauma
                  Administrator
                  • Feb 2011
                  • 3901

                  #23
                  Last time I bought a firing pin I think it was about $6, and I might even have a spare lying around. Seems some guys create a dummy firing pin by grinding down the tip until it no longer exceeds the boltface for cycle testing live ammo in the house without fear of accidental discharge. Useful, or a waste of time?
                  :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                  :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                  Comment

                  • NugginFutz
                    Chieftain
                    • Aug 2013
                    • 2622

                    #24
                    Last edited by NugginFutz; 03-01-2020, 04:11 PM.
                    If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

                    Comment

                    • Kswhitetails
                      Chieftain
                      • Oct 2016
                      • 1914

                      #25
                      The solution to this is a $2.50 firing pin filed .070 short. Paint the thing red to identify it, and keep it handy when this kind of testing is required. Just a quick thought about how to overcome the rotating cam pin issue.
                      Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

                      Comment

                      • ecosystem3
                        Unwashed
                        • Mar 2019
                        • 7

                        #26
                        As a followup, I had the rifle out this weekend and it ran like a champ. I removed the extractor o-ring and there were no more jammed BCGs going into battery. I put 60 rounds through the barrel and was eventually shooting MOA.

                        While debugging, I did try to slide the BCG into battery without the firing pin and a few times the cam pin did rotate and lock the bolt. After some praying and jiggling, I was able to remove the BCG. A spare firing pin has been ordered.

                        Again, thank you all for your input and guidance!

                        Comment

                        • Kswhitetails
                          Chieftain
                          • Oct 2016
                          • 1914

                          #27
                          Hot dang! Glad you found a solution that was painless! Great news. Forward, ho!
                          Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

                          Comment

                          • Mad Charlie
                            Warrior
                            • May 2017
                            • 827

                            #28
                            E3:
                            I had the exact same problem on my first Grendel build, and solved it in much the same way. Tuned and polished the extractor, and de-burred the extractor slot and ejector channel in the bolt, and removed the "rubber baby buggy bumper plug" from under the extractor. I replaced the spring with an "extra power" spring from Brownell's. The rifle has run flawlessly ever since, and very smoothly I might add. Little things add up with these rifles, but once they are tuned right they will run fine.

                            Comment

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