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Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement. -
Tease! I could have sworn that the title was saying that you found a potential bolt that would enable you to neck down a 6.5 PRC to 6mm and fit it in an AR.
I know nothing about bolt guns other than that I only have 2 of them and that my Bushnell rebate gift card will be showing up soon. It could cover the cost of a drop in Proof steel Baby S'more barrel for my RPR and leave enough left over for a decent bottle of Cotes during Rhone. We'll see how I feel when the card arrives.
I don't know why you'd want to spend more money and restrict yourself to the grendel confines in a bolt gun. My 6mm Grrrrrrrr has a really tight throat and I still can't get near the lands with the 110 SMKs. You could probably buy your action in the form of a Baby S'more rifle and shoot the stock barrel out while you wait for someone to make a Bartlein. It's all the rage for a reason. With the 6.5 CM, everyone jumped on the wagon because people who had never previously shot over 200 yards thought they were going to pull it out of the box and start ringing steel at 1k. I think the 6 CM crowd is a bit more experienced. Just make sure you do a 1:7 twist so you can do the 110 smks, acknowledging that that will limit you with varmint bullets.Let's go Brandon! -
Well, it’s either this or buy a LaRue UU ar10 kit in 6.5 CM. Or .260. But really, why? I’ve already got my Grendel, there’s nothing to gain but velocity, and with the reserve strength associated with the custom 700 actions, I’ve found something else to drool over.
The only way this idea takes more shape than being a imaginary rifle, is if I can use the long 243 bullets to good effect. So, I got to thinking about a Defiance/Bighorn/BAPrecision 700 action barreled for the 6mm Grendel with an appropriate chamber/throat combination to allow use of the long high bc 243s and push the case to its limitations. Good call on the 1:7.
It’s looking more and more like the 6CM is more advantageous, as you suggest. But then, why not follow that reasoning and do the 6.5? Or a 6.5x47?
I don’t know enough to make any final decisions, but if I can push the high bc 243 pills fast enough to remain supersonic to 1300 from the 6 Grendel, then why go bigger? The decrease in recoil, lower barrel stresses, and being able to take full advantage of the Grendel knowledge base here, why go somewhere else?
I’m really just wanting to build a bolt Grendel on one of these really, really nice receivers. I mean come ON, they will make a damned fine bolt gun. Too bad none of them make a mini action...Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.Comment
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I really doubt the 110 smks will work in a Grendel. My 6mm Grrrrrrrr throat is super tight - I'm loading 105 RDfs at 2.20 when others are going to 2.28/2.29 - and I'm still 0.09 off the lands with the 110s at 2.31. I guess it's possible to have a custom throat done, but the barrel would be worthless for anything else. And if Federal has taught us anything with the 224 Valkyrie, it's that its not wise to design something around a specific bullet.
You could always load a Baby S'more around minimum charges and get Grrrrrrrr speeds and recoil and take it easy on your throat.
There's a reason why there's a market for theseOriginally posted by Kswhitetails View Post
Screenshot_20180502-085052_crop_337x358.jpgLast edited by StoneHendge; 05-02-2018, 03:18 PM.Let's go Brandon!Comment
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HAHA! Point taken sir, well done.
Have you tried the RDFs? Whats the likelihood of using these in your 6Gr?Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.Comment
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The 6creed ruger precision rifle is what I'd want if I was to replace my 243win rem 700.
Less expensive than a custom bolt gun and plenty accurate.Comment
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If you're building a bolt gun there are better cartridges for the application. 6BR, 6x47, 6CM for example. The Grendel is pretty cool in a AR15 but would handicap a PRS.Last edited by centerfire; 05-03-2018, 11:04 AM.Comment
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Copy. I know there are other cartridges, that using traditional thinking, are "better". But, I'm stuck on the Grendel case as a parent probably for the sake of stubborn pride... Maybe I shouldn't be. (By the way, I failed to say this first, but 6mm AR is a 6.5 Grendel case necked down to 6mm, nothing more than that = 6mm Grendel)
The further down this rabbit hole I go, the further into option induced stagnation-land I find myself in. I'd like to have a Rem 700 based Grendel, honestly. (http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...rendel-project) Something I could have in wood and blued steel, and take to the woods to hit where I'm aiming, proudly taking game that others say can't be taken with Grendel... let them eat crow.
Here's where the bolt gun comes into things further: I want to shoot at distances past 500 pretty bad. I've taken my Grendel to 400, and it was a poop shoot. Looked at the calculator, used the reticle, and held what it said for a generic - velocity estimated guess. pip/clang 5/5 on an 8" gong, then 4/5 on a 4". It was FUN, and easy. So, next challenge is to truly develop my load, get good calculated and verified velocity numbers, and stretch things out. The only real place to do that around me is participating in PRS matches. But the local guys all agree, Grendel is handicapped at longer ranges because of low relative velocities due to low case capacities and short magazine lengths. (Many of them have Grendels, or so it seems).
But, knowing myself as I do, there will come a day (probably match 2) where hanging around in the middle of the pack isn't good enough. And I'll start asking the Grendel to do things it just isn't capable of. (IDPA silhouettes at 1300)
As much as I hate to admit it, these guys are all likely right. Grendel just isn't competitive against the large frame AR and the bolt guys. Especially at 900+, which is where these things are apparently won and lost. (This is where I remind myself that I don't have the skills to be competitive yet anyway, and that a bolt gun isn't necessary, and I've already got the LaRue Grendel to get started with, just go do some of it and see what happens, go shoot and have fun and learn more...) But, I'll be damned if I listen to myself telling me to quit dreaming.
I will not leave the 6.5 bore. It's just too good for it's size. Especially when considering the 600 plus BC bullets for competitions, in the x47 or Creed, or others mentioned. The rage at the moment is the 6 dasher around here, so I thought about building a 6 Grendel improved. (Hence the thread title) After thinking about the 6mm/243 class for a few days, finding the selection of high BC bullets at the moment is somewhat limited, and showing varying results at best. To take the 6 Grendel out to 1300, would mean using the 105 RDF, or even more so the 110 SMK, which means customizing the throat, and pushing them at velocities that just barely get there supersonic - that's far too advanced for my tight brain box. Which means 6 Creed, and if I'm doing that, then I'm doing the 6.5, no question.
So, the rabbit hole starts looking like Alice's nightmares all over again. If I'm doing a Rem 700 action bolt, and I MUST leave Grendel, then I think to myself: "it's either going to be a Defiant, a Bighorn Origin, one of GAPrecision's Templars, or (maybe, more reading to do) a Mausingfield." I mean these things are freakin' SMEXY fellas... I really like the GAPrecision, for their RSAUM version of the 6.5, but holy cow, $5k for their boom-stick says no - especially when I can build a .260/6.5 creed LaRue for under 2k. I wonder if I could just scavenge a 700 action, and chamber an easier to obtain blank in 6.5 RSAUM, (Shilen, Criterion, etc) then have the Remington bolt machined to fit? Gah, by the time I get this done, and buy a stock, trigger, magazines - I'm getting to GAP's asking price anyway...
So, when I sit back, settle down, and take a breath to think, It becomes easy. My weapon for PRS/long range isn't going to be Grendel. And herein lies the foundational problem. The Grendel's just been too good to really get into building something else. I'm trapped in the tractor beam of goodness that the Grendel has become in my shooting life. So my Grendel bolt will come to be, likely with advice from Second as he's already been down this particular road, and others. My PRS gun is going to most likely going to come from LaRue in the form of an UU kit in .260. Or Creed. Dammit another rabbit hole...Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.Comment
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I shoot in the Sporting Rifle Match in Raton every month. Right now I am running my 24" lilja.
Yes the Grendel is a handicap. No question. A gas gun is another handicap. No question. Compound that by lack of skill and training...
I do it for fun. I have yet to get first round hits (and first round is all you get. 1 shot, one target, hit or miss, move on) past 700y. There is an 875y plate that has been taunting me every match. Last month I missed by 6", bad wind call...again. When I am out for fun, I can get the longer range hits in 2-3 shots.
Here is the thing. The bullet gets there, just like the 6.5 creed, 6.5x45, Dasher, BR, 260s, Ackley Improved...It just has more drop, and drift. This is where skill comes into play. Calling the right wind holdover, and a good load on the ammo with a good dope chart.
There is no real money, or prizes for winning the match. Probably get your entry fee back and maybe pay for the hotel room. I do it for the fun, and there is not the high power egos and attitude at this match (I'll never shoot USPSA again...ever).
I say stick with your original plan and go have fun.Sticks
Catchy sig line here.
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I hear you on all of it. BE and Dasher are big here too. They're also a pain to deal with because of the brass. I thin 6x47L or 6CM is a great compromise; Lapua factory brass, tons of data, mild loads, and 308 Winchester based equipment (bolt face, magazines, SA. Etc). I know a lot of guys here love Grendel but when you take it out of the AR15 or a budget 223 boltgun action it loses its appeal.Originally posted by Kswhitetails View Post
I'm in handloading heaven with Grendel but my next boltgun will be a larger cartridge.Comment
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If your really serious about getting into the PRS game, start here: http://bluesteelranch.us/
Prices actually used to be higher and I thought I got more than my moneys worth for PR1. You can do it with a Grendel with no problem (I did PR1 with my 18" carbine) and getting into the field with what you have will demonstrate its short comings and what sort of equipment is really required. Aside from getting on the known distance range and shooting 1k so everyone can say they shot 1k, most of the canyon work is 350-700 yards. Instead of spending $$ and then showing up to matches and realizing you need to modify your equipment and have no idea as to how to approach stages, it will leave you with a very good idea of what you need and how to approach. So its money well spent since it can save you some, plus an absolutely incredible 3 day full immersion with gun nuts like yourself on an incredible piece of real estate (kind of like Pebble Beach for shooters). Brian the lead instructor absolutely rocks and John Paul is apparently committed to attending all of the sessions this year - and I can tell you its pretty surreal to be on your rifle working with your spotter only to find out that JP has been watching you when he comes up to give you pointers and critique your equipment. It will also humble almost everyone. When I did the Carbine Marksman class in April, all of the 3 gunners were talking their 3 gunner bravado at dinner the night before the first day. Most of those guys got smacked down to earth by mid afternoon.
Note that when they say "intended for students with little to no experience in the discipline," they are referring to long range practical shooting. Not long range shooting.
The only downside is that its like being introduced to Heisenberg. And once you've been introduced to Heisenberg, not a lot of other product makes the grade!Let's go Brandon!Comment
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You could build a nice bolt gun with a switch barrel system. Like a Defiance, Surgeon or even stock Rem 700SA (trued, with thicker recoil lug and tighter fitting bolt). Have your Grendel bolt and barrel for short/medium range hunting and target, then switch barrels to say a 6.5 Creedmore for long range.
If the competition stipulated AR15's only you would be competitive but outside that bubble it is the poor cousin of every 6.5 with a bigger boiler room.
If there is any wind on the day you shoot 1,300 you will be throwing money down range for little satisfaction. It will be like driving jelly. But, at 100yds it will be a tack driver.
Sticks is on the money with the Sporting Rifle Match at Raton. I've only been there once yet it taught me so much with its unforgiving format. Plus there are some really good shots and guns, mostly the larger 6.5's; 6.5Cr, 260R, 6.5*284, 6.5*47. They would welcome you with your Grendel but it will never be competitive (unless shooting against similar calibres only).Last edited by Klem; 05-05-2018, 12:04 AM.Comment
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Oh my, goodness me. Maybe, if the stars align and I can find a way to hitch-hike...Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.Comment
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Yeah, Klem, I'm learning to understand the limits of Grendel, and respect the authority of the "bigger boiler rooms".
A switch barrel system is okay, but defeats the purpose-built mantra I've been driving at.
The problem with Kansas is that there isn't really any kind of range where 1000 yards of good terrain for this that isn't already in use for wheat, corn, cotton, or cows. The only land here is private, and crops pay better than a range, so...
I definitely want to take a carbine class, have for a long time, even before I ever had an AR...
One of these days...Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.Comment
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If you were to level the field, and give all the shooters the same caliber/cartridge, you would likely see a shift in the end of day results. I am new to this, but the simple logic states that regardless of what you are shooting, it still all boils down to shooter skill, not the rifle (bear in mind we are talking about a rifle that can and will consistently shoot .75 MOA +/- .2. Be it bolt gun or gas gun.Originally posted by Klem View Post
Someone whipping a .750 G1 BC at 2950fps has a large margin of error to play with, compared to a .506 BC plodding along at 2500. Better and faster equipment makes up for lack of skill.Sticks
Catchy sig line here.
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