25 Grendel or 25 BR

[LRRPF52]

Ok yeah that sounds pretty awesome. My only question is that isnt a 6br bolt face a .473? Can that fit in an ar15( as opposed to a ar10)?
Actually scratch that i just remembered the 30AR fit in an ar15.
What bolt would you use? Some sort of .473 face but ar15 bcg carrier hybrid?
Got my interest totally piqued here

The BR case is a .473" head like a .308 Win., .30-06 Springfield, etc. Several people have already been doing wildcats with the BR in the AR15, but there has never been a receiver really made for it, let alone mags.

We're at the stage in AR15 development, I feel, where it's time to really nail down another industry-supported option in the receiver sizes and magazines, without compromising the familiarity of the AR15 form factor, but no longer being constrained to the limitations of the 5.56 magazine, magazine well, and other core components of the 5.56 NATO pressure containment system and its diminutive size.

The overall form factor, weight, handling, and center of balance need not suffer in order to step into new high performance intermediate cartridges, and the size/weight/recoil of the AR10 can be avoided while matching or exceeding the performance of the 6.5CM when looking at hit probability, wind deflection, and sight picture disturbance.

Just to give one an idea about the numbers the 131gr .257"/6.35mm projectile allows.

Assuming 131gr ACE at 2500fps mv from a Grendel case:
600yds 1779fps 921ft-lbs 4.5 mils drop 1.1 mils drift
1000yds 1369fps 545ft-lbs 10.3 mils drop 2.1 mils drift
1300yds 1109fps

Assuming 131gr ACE at 2700fps with a BR/Dasher case
600yds 1947fps 1103ft-lbs 3.7 mils drop 1 mil drift
1000yds 1517fps 669ft-lbs 8.5 mils drop 1.8 mils drift
1450yds 1109fps

6.5 Creedmoor 140gr ELD-M 2710fps .305 G7 BC
600 1899fps 1121ft-lbs 3.8 mils drop 1.1 mils drift
1000yds 1442fps 646ft-lbs 8.8 mils drop 2 mils drift
1350 1107fps

25 Creedmoor/.257x47 Lapua 2900fps 131gr ACE
600 2116fps 1302ft-lbs 3.1 mils drop .9 mils drift
1000yds 1665fps 806ft-lbs 7.2 mils drop 1.6 drift
1600yds 1106fps

The main reason competitors have drifted away from 6.5CM and .260 Rem in PRS is recoil and muzzle blast/climb-induced sight picture disturbance, which prevents an individual shooter from seeing what happens on-target/near target in the scope, followed by 2-3 day match fatigue. This translates to other shooting disciplines and hunting.

6mm has been the go-to bore for PRS for a while now, with 6 Creedmoor and Dasher being pretty popular, as well as 6x47 Lapua. They can push speed to make up for lower BCs compared to the 6.5mm, get a very flat trajectory and minimal wind drift, and track the sight picture throughout the shot. Problem is retained energy on target and being able to swing the plates for ROs to be able to give you credit.

As you can see with the .257" 131gr ACE, it has more energy at 1000yds than a 10mm does at the muzzle, and that's true with several 10mm loads even compared to the .257 Grendel case with this bullet.

No matter how you slice it, this type of quarterbore projectile really steps things up a notch for wildcats and new factory ammo options.

[LRRPF52]

Looks like 2.430" COL will work with the 131gr ACE in a Grendel case run through a bushing die.

[grayfox]

Simplest way I can think of is to find someone who can 'cnc an upper/lower set, call it a "stretch-15", add maybe 0.2-0.25" to overall length via longer magwell up through the lower/upper/carrier and CH, lengthen the buffer by the same to allow the bcg to cycle. Maybe even widen the lower what, 0.2" again to allow for polymer mags... or keep it same width and use a single-stack or a "1.5 stack".

All things considered you should be able to leave the metal/finishing/material qualities the same -- seems like this would be an incremental upgrade that seems possible.

[Kilco]

I've had such amazing luck with the 6 grendel, you have sparked my interest with this.

Velocity is where I'm a skeptic. Not a doubter, just a skeptic.

I've got to look at my data, but I believe I'm pushing the 110 SMK 2640 from a 22" barrel, and it's a warmish load.

[bj139]

I just remembered this.

https://www.maddogweapons.com/65-timberwolf.html

[LRRPF52]

I've had such amazing luck with the 6 grendel, you have sparked my interest with this.

Velocity is where I'm a skeptic. Not a doubter, just a skeptic.

I've got to look at my data, but I believe I'm pushing the 110 SMK 2640 from a 22" barrel, and it's a warmish load.

Yes. We currently are able to get 2500-2600fps with 129-130gr from a 24" Grendel using CFE223 or LVR.

With a beefed up action and more allowable COL, I see 2500fps with the .257" 131gr as realistic.

With the BR Improved/Dasher-like case, I don't think 2700fps is out of reach at all.

They're currently getting 2940fps from .257 CM and .257x47 Lapua, and 3140fps from 25x284 with 1/7.75" twist.

They confirmed BC at 1000yds with an Oehler 88.

[bj139]

The 6.5 Timberwolf has already been done. Only .007" bigger bullet than the 25 Timberwolf.

[kmon]

We were discussing this bullet on another forum and Logan co-owner of blackjack bullets chimed in. Here is his post from that site

This is Logan, co-owner of Blackjack Bullets. Just wanted to poke my head in here and answer questions and provide transparent answers for you guys.

No there aren't any factory 25 cal rifles with 1:7-1:8 twist barrels to shoot the 131 ACE's. We know that and our target market isn't the hunter that has a 257 WBY that shoots 7 rounds a year at a paper plate and 2 at a deer. How long have 105-115g 6mms been popular? Until recently how many factory rifles have fast enough twists to fully stabilize them? The market that the 131's are designed for already shoot custom rifles and wear out a barrel or 2 or 3 a year. Barrels are something they are already going to buy weather its a 1:8 6.5, 1:7 6mm or a 1:7 .257 its no different.

On to the BC: We advertise .330 G7 this is not a made up number from a range day trip. We did testing with a 25-284 with 1:7.75" twist bbl through an Ohler 88 system with 1000y TOF that takes out variables such as scope tracking, mirage, shooter error and environmentals. The reasoning behind this is that @ 2940 fps (a velocity obtainable out of a x47 case) the SG is 1.5. That is just on the edge of "fully stable" which is not optimal for best BC numbers. We wanted it this way, Why? Because we wanted to advertise the actual number from testing in sub optimal conditions so that anyone that spends their hard earned money on our product is pleasantly surprised when they see results better than advertised, completely opposite of the industry norm. There are some very reputable shooters out there with our bullets (bought on their own dime) with 1:7 or 1:7.25" barrels that reports are consistently .340-.350 G7 in real world shooting at distances out to 1800y.

To the comment about the bullets "it would be one of the most picky bullets to dial in" We have only had 2 customers up to this point having concerns with this. One ended up being an issue with using old brass that had been necked up and down multiple times between 6.5 and 6mm, a donut had formed and once that was taken care off accuracy was great. The other has just recently been brought up and we are working with them to figure it out. Mark Gordon did an initial review of them with his version of "seating depth first" load development. He tested from .000 to .095" off and determined that they shot best at .035" off but had good accuracy throughout the test.

We understand the skepticism and actually welcome it, we are not trying to bring in customers to buy once and be disappointed with results and never come back. We want to bring the best product that we possibly can to a currently neglected segment of the market and have customers that can't get enough of the advantages that it brings to the table.

[Sticks]

I just remembered this.
https://www.maddogweapons.com/65-timberwolf.html

That is impressive. Wonder why that has not taken off yet.

[bj139]

That is impressive. Wonder why that has not taken off yet.

They get 200fps more because of the bigger case volume. It seems like a small increase but I guess velocity squared makes it bigger.

[LRRPF52]

Any cartridge that requires more than a single operation to make brass will have a difficult time gaining popularity even among the tiny percentage of the market that likes to wildcat, until it gets enough interest to gain SAAMI approval.

Some of the cartridges that started out as wildcats and became popular in the target shooting/competitive, hunting, and even military circles:

* 6.5x284 SAAMI spec'd as 6.5x284 Norma
* 6.5 Panther or 6.5-08 A-Square spec'd as .260 Remington
* 7mm/308 became 7mm-08 Remington
* 250 Savage necked down to .22 became the .22-250 Remington
* 7.62x39 necked down to .22 became the .220 Russian
* .220 Russian necked up to 6mm became the 6mm PPC
* 30 TC necked down to 6.5mm became the 6.5 Creedmoor
* .222 Remington with shoulder blown forward became the 5.56x45 and .223 Remington
* .30 Remington necked down to .277" became the 6.8x43/6.8 SPC
* 6mm PPC necked up with shoulder blown forward became 6.5 Grendel


All I can say is wait a few weeks for SHOT and see what new cartridges will be introduced, and what actions are being made for new cartridges that have been done over the past 10 years. Nosler, Federal, and Hornady are always coming up with something new. For every success story, there are many failures. Hornady's 30 TC is a great cartridge, but never took off. Only decades later would it be the basis for the 6.5 Creedmoor's meteoric success.

6.5 Grendel's success is an anomaly since it didn't have a huge ammunition manufacturer behind it from the start, yet it still is probably the fastest-growing alternative chambering for the AR15. It certainly is the one to beat for performance in all the industry standard chamberings that will work in a standard AR15 receiver set.

In order to beat the Grendel, the magazine well and COL has to grow. The WSSM uppers are not standard, nor are the barrel extensions. Mags are single presentation feed, low capacity.

Right now, the 6.5 Grendel brings performance that exceeds the needs of most shooters, but those of us who like to experiment and push the capabilities further will always have some degree of wanderlust.

I've always wanted a .257" bore since my Grandfather was so fond of the .257 Roberts, and quarter bore just seems to be a really nice balance point between 6mm and 6.5mm. Now that projectile selection is expanding, I think it's worth pursuing on the developmental side of things.

[Kilco]

As you and I have talked about In the past LRRP52, the 30 Rem AR would be the ultimate upper/cartridge to wildcat with.

I was on a kick to make a 6.5 or 6mm wildcat with my 30 Rem AR. But I couldn't even get my hands on a single magazine or bolt, so I gave up quickly. I had a really nice CS rep from DPMS even searching thier old warehouses and came up with nothing... the 30 RAR has almost the same capacity as a 6.5x47L.

Speaking of such, what's that wildcat the grouchy guy at ARP makes with the 270? I'm not sure what he is doing regarding the bolt/barrel extension but I believe he is necking the 6.5x47L up to 270 and running it in a small frame AR.. I'm not savvy on the details and I know it's not very popular, but in regards to what you want to do with a quarter bore would that be applicable?

[SightedIn]

That is impressive. Wonder why that has not taken off yet.

Fireforming keeps me away many cool calibers...

[LRRPF52]

As you and I have talked about In the past LRRP52, the 30 Rem AR would be the ultimate upper/cartridge to wildcat with.

I was on a kick to make a 6.5 or 6mm wildcat with my 30 Rem AR. But I couldn't even get my hands on a single magazine or bolt, so I gave up quickly. I had a really nice CS rep from DPMS even searching thier old warehouses and came up with nothing... the 30 RAR has almost the same capacity as a 6.5x47L.

Speaking of such, what's that wildcat the grouchy guy at ARP makes with the 270? I'm not sure what he is doing regarding the bolt/barrel extension but I believe he is necking the 6.5x47L up to 270 and running it in a small frame AR.. I'm not savvy on the details and I know it's not very popular, but in regards to what you want to do with a quarter bore would that be applicable?

MDWS has a full line of different case-based wildcats for the AR15, starting with .223 cats, 6.8 cats, and shortened x47 Lapua cats.

[Djgrendel]

Been wanting a heavy, slick bc bullet for my 25-06. The blackjack could be it. The rifle needs a new tube anyway so I might as well twist it tight. The 25 cal has been forgotten by bullet mfg for to long as far as the long range game goes. This pleases me greatly. An extended COL in the grendel case should be a great combination for the mini bolt rifles.