6.5 Grendel Variants, Good or Bad?

[jmhallrn]

Fair enough, but the problem arose when they were NOT. Right? Dave Kiff was recently bragging that many barrels marked 6.5 Grendel are not SAAMI 6.5 Grendel. Then, when they don't work, who gets the blame? All the vendors involved run for the hills and point fingers at each other and finally at the 6.5 Grendel itself as conceived by Alexander Arms.

We've had a few guys recently say they're disillusioned about the 6.5 Grendel because of the Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt that's been sown. That doesn't help the rest of us who are looking forward to more participation, by users and vendors alike, in the 6.5 Grendel program.

As you say, I'd like the various variant entities to take responsibility for their creations. Everybody knows what the .223 Wylde is; it is a solid solution to a valid problem and you know what you're getting when you order one. If you want a 6.5 Grendel variant, call it the 6.5 Satern or the 6.5 Kiff, and own it. I'll give Les Baer credit for calling his the .264LBC, even if he did it for reasons beyond mere truth in labeling.

If one's variant chamber succeeds, one wants all the credit. And the money. If one's variant chamber flops, one points a finger at Alexander Arms. It's like Obama still blaming Bush for the past six years. . . .

John

It would seem that the problem then lies not with variant chambers, but with the advertising and business practices of the various companies offering them. I'll not comment on the merits of their respective names.

Also, in my opinion, a wildcat would necessitate some change to the cartridge (i.e. necking up/down, moving or blowing out the shoulder, etc.). And there are, in fact, numbered chamber designs (6.8 spc and 6.8 spc II.)

[JDub]

"The best thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from."

[keystone183]

I tend to believe the latter, jasmith, as tedward recently commented on another board that the liberty "dust up" is unlikely to die down, soon. It seems that he is working to ensure that it remains so. Disagree? Then he can prove me wrong, and let it go.

While obviously it could be pure coincidence, it is strange he showed up about the exact time as another, recently banned, member. It isn't coincidence. Their agendas are the same. He is the 'good cop' to the no longer present 'bad cop'.

Don't believe me? Read back through the now closed thread and ponder how it is someone seemingly intelligent could make such foolish assumptions so many times in a row. Or have a non-existent short term memory. Someone who 'just wants the facts' would certainly make himself aware of them when they are presented. And in searching for clarity, one doesn't often purposefully attempt to muddy the water.

The entertainment value is high though...

[pinzgauer]

My concern has been this idea lately that the Grendel cartridge isn't quite hot enough so lets make longer throats so we can have longer bullets so we can have more powder capacity, ad naseum... MY OPINION MY OPINION MY OPINION is that this comes from a misunderstanding of what makes the Grendel so great: BCs The Grendel has delivered everything that drew me to it... maintained velocity over an extended range with fantastic wind fighting capability. For me this means I can take the 300 yard shot and know what my bullet is going to do when it hits a given animal. Muzzle velocity isn't the only number to look at when forming opinions on ballistics.

That seems to have been the rallying call of late in certain circles who had a vested interest (financial?) in defending the Liberty barrels. Some of which had short throats and had to be "fixed". So now it's turned into finding every example in the last 10 years where someone had a stuck cartridge and using it as an example of design deficiency. And now it's shifting to bolt design as well. Same actors, and same (presumably) motive.

Lost in the posturing is some well intentioned desire to shoot heavier bullets for hunting. Bullets which normally have to be seated too deeply. So they are willing to go mag length or longer (6.8 mags, etc) and need deeper throats.

Personally, that is not of interest to me. Nor am I convinced the benefit will be as large as they think. 120/123 is the heaviest I will go in Grendel, and based on performance of the factory & reload 123g SST the cartridge is doing everything I want it to.

And keeping decent accuracy with current and future factory ammo is important to me. Which for me is where the Grendel shines.

I chuckle at some of the "I modified my throat, and it's shooting great, getting .75 or 1 MOA at 100 yards" comments. I've never seen a factory Grendel do worse than that. And one of mine was 1/2 moa with cheap glass and service trigger.

[BjornF16]

But I do find it interesting that Steve Satern, under contract at the time to AA to build Grendel barrels, was signing off on a drawing of a Grendel variant chamber, and was keeping the trademarked name of Grendel on it. There is an awful lot of strangeness there, since the Grendel wasn't yet SAAMI and was still trademarked.

Wouldn't there also be culpability for PTG for infringing upon a trademarked name (at that time)?

(Not to mention the entire ethics issues it raises...)

[JASmith]

...Lost in the posturing is some well intentioned desire to shoot heavier bullets for hunting. Bullets which normally have to be seated too deeply. So they are willing to go mag length or longer (6.8 mags, etc) and need deeper throats.

Personally, that is not of interest to me. Nor am I convinced the benefit will be as large as they think. 120/123 is the heaviest I will go in Grendel, and based on performance of the factory & reload 123g SST the cartridge is doing everything I want it to...

Those who already have or will soon get Volume 2 of the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook can see on page 33 that 120 grains is enough for all deer. Turning the page over to page 35 and we see where some pressure to go heavier might occur. Even there, the 100 gr TTSX and 125 gr Partition are good for Elk.

One can also get a better feel for how heavy a bullet one needs for the Grendel and other cartridges by going here: Ideal Bullet Weight.

So, yes, I can see where one who wants to shoot some heavy bullets might be tempted to go with a full-diameter freebore.

Nonetheless, the existing SAAMI spec for the Grendel has long been shown to do very well. The folks who want to do something different have to step over a tall threshold to do better across the board. I look forward to seeing if someone can do that using the baseline 220 Russian case because I am reasonably sure that merely tweaking freebore and throat details is not enough.

[LRRPF52]

Variable already loads the 160gr Hornady Round Nose to magazine length in his Grendel for subsonic loads, in a SAAMI Grendel chamber.

We're basically seeing a collection of novices who are being influenced by industry figures with chips on their shoulders against AA who want to make one of the most successful products their skirmish line in order to attack and lash out. Basically adults who are much older than me behaving like children in a sandbox.

The customer should not be exposed to middle-aged and aging men throwing tantrums. It's pretty sad when you think about it. I however choose to be happy, especially when I'm out ringing steel at stupid ranges with a little carbine, or seeing the twofer posts that have a habit of showing up here in the hunting section.

[NugginFutz]

While obviously it could be pure coincidence, it is strange he showed up about the exact time as another, recently banned, member. It isn't coincidence. Their agendas are the same. He is the 'good cop' to the no longer present 'bad cop'.

Don't believe me? Read back through the now closed thread and ponder how it is someone seemingly intelligent could make such foolish assumptions so many times in a row. Or have a non-existent short term memory. Someone who 'just wants the facts' would certainly make himself aware of them when they are presented. And in searching for clarity, one doesn't often purposefully attempt to muddy the water.

The entertainment value is high though...

I have often wondered how someone with an FFL could come in, throw a verbal grenade in the room, claiming ignorance of the facts, while in the same breath defend it by saying they are only reporting what they'd heard. Classic plausible deniability. "I'm only saying what someone told me." has been used way too often, here.

As far as entertainment value goes, if I wanted to watch Jerry Springer, I'd turn on the TV. It's more difficult to change channels here, though. Makes me wish there was TIVO for Forums.

[JASmith]

...Makes me wish there was TIVO for Forums.

It's called the "add to ignore list" under that member's profile. It results in one not seeing that member's posts until you reverse the setting. My own experience (I've used it just once since I've been on the forum) is that it helps insulate one from stupid and petty comments and sheer bone-headed assertions repeated way too often.

Watching other readers' responses to those same less-than-useful comments still gives one a handle on where things are going. That means that one can still make a comment when needed but my pleasant surprise that the need arose only very infrequently. Others carried the water very well!

[nincomp]

I seem to remember that there was a section for grendel variants on this site.* Somewhere I saw a 30 cal one (from 320pf maybe) and a one for 35 caliber. Am I thinking of the wrong site?


* ..but then again I also remember being handsome when I was younger. My wife disagrees.

[BluntForceTrauma]

I seem to remember that there was a section for grendel variants on this site.

Ha! Wrong site. Although, seriously, I'm open to opinions whether there should be a Grendel variants section here.

I think most of us agree that variants are perfectly valid when honestly labeled as such.

If one looks at the Big Picture, more chambers "eating" factory 6.5 Grendel ammunition (whether SAAMI 65G or not) can be seen as a good thing, in terms of tempting more vendors to get on board.

The downside is confused consumers who throw up their hands and say, "I can't feed 6.5 Grendel factory ammo in this chamber! What's wrong with the 6.5 Grendel?" or "6.5 Grendel factory ammo shoots like crap in this chamber! What's wrong with the 6.5 Grendel?" You just know the 6.5 Grendel will be thrown under the bus and not the variant chamber. . . .

Of course, it can cut the other way and proper variants can do the whole program a favor and make 6.5 Grendel factory ammo look good.

I'm truly on the fence. Opinions on adding a variants section? Or perhaps it's such a minor subsection that posts about them can just stay in the main section without adding clutter?

John

[JASmith]

I am truly in favor of a Grendel Wildcats sub-forum. This would be the section where ANY variation from the SAAMI chamber - caliber, shoulder length, freebore, throat, etc. would be discussed.

We have wildcats, for example, ranging in caliber from .20 up through at least .35 and possibly .375 in existence already. We have the slightly stretch version by Von Gruff. There have been lots of discussions about what can be gained from seating the bullet way out but one needs a longer throat to do that.

All of these and more can be discussed in a section of this type.

We could even title it "Grendel-Cats"...

[NugginFutz]

I am truly in favor of a Grendel Wildcats sub-forum. This would be the section where ANY variation from the SAAMI chamber - caliber, shoulder length, freebore, throat, etc. would be discussed.

We have wildcats, for example, ranging in caliber from .20 up through at least .35 and possibly .375 in existence already. We have the slightly stretch version by Von Gruff. There have been lots of discussions about what can be gained from seating the bullet way out but one needs a longer throat to do that.

All of these and more can be discussed in a section of this type.

We could even title it "Grendel-Cats"...

+1

I think that by establishing a section (or sections) specifically for the discussion of such variants, questions regarding such things can be addressed and framed with the understanding that they were variants. I remember having a bit of confusion, early on, regarding the .264 LBC and had, at times, referred to it as a Grendel. (Silly me).

The heading suggested by JASmith, though, was previously offered by another member (Buster). Credit where credit is due, I say. Unless, of course, Joe is paying homage to him w/o specifically saying so.

[bwaites]

One issue is that we really haven't defined what the Grendel is.

Is it the cartridge? If it is, then all the rifles that fire that cartridge are Grendels. In its most basic form, I think this is the case.

Is it the chamber? If so, then the SAAMI chamber and only the SAAMI chamber is a Grendel. Anything else is a variant.

Is it the entire system, a SAAMI cartridge fed into a SAAMI chamber? In that case, only SAAMI chambers fed by SAAMI compliant ammo is a Grendel. Everything else is a variant.

I like variants. I own one, a 264 LBC. I want another, a bolt rifle firing factory ammo, but from a .292-.295 neck, which might be set up so that I can load long bullets out around 2.4 inches and maximize that little powder space. Would that be a Grendel? Not in my mind, because it would have a tight throat, and would load longer than factory ammo. BUT....it would be a Grendel variant, just like the Wylde is a .223 variant. Why do I want such a bolt rifle, because in a bolt rifle like that you could finally squeeze every last drop of performance out of the Grendel cartridge. You simply can't do that in an AR, nor should you try.

A sub forum sounds great.

[NugginFutz]

One issue is that we really haven't defined what the Grendel is.

Is it the cartridge? If it is, then all the rifles that fire that cartridge are Grendels. In its most basic form, I think this is the case.

Is it the chamber? If so, then the SAAMI chamber and only the SAAMI chamber is a Grendel. Anything else is a variant.

Is it the entire system, a SAAMI cartridge fed into a SAAMI chamber? In that case, only SAAMI chambers fed by SAAMI compliant ammo is a Grendel. Everything else is a variant.

All excellent points. I believe that the answers to those could easily be used to establish which chamberings the sub forum would be used for. While I am positive that some posts may end up in the wrong sub forum, a diligent mod (cough) would gently shepherd those errant posts into the correct sub forum, with explanation. Perhaps the customary sticky at the top of the sub forum could outline Bill's points in the form of a definition or characteristics.

Personally, I think it would be clearest to follow the chamber as the baseline. The .223 Wylde will shoot the .223 or 5.56, but it is still a Wylde(cat).

Further, I think that by adopting the variants into their own sub-forum, a healthier, more robust conversation within the family can be had.