You are right. It seems the suggested retail is always higher than the price I pay for them from my dealer.
Optics Selection
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LRRPF52,
Thank you again for the great advise. Especially about gas systems in winter. Very good points as always. I wish BCA offered a 16" barrel with a MLGS. I just got a BCA 16" upper in and some Hornady Black ammo as well as some Wolf ammo. Next Thursday is supposed to be single digits, so it may be a good time to go play with the 18" barrel, 16" barrel and the chronograph.
I still think that the mounts are overpriced though. I completely agree that there is some total junk out there that is not worth messing with. What I struggle with is this. If you look at what a scope mount is, what it is made of and how it is made they shouldn't cost that much unless it was a very small special run. Even then $150 seems high. We are getting complete group buy (small run) Faxon barrels for $150. I have a hard time thinking that a custom barrel costs less than an off the self mount.
Look at the Anderson forged lower as another example. They are US made from USA 7075 aluminum to specific tolerances. Each one has had extensive machining including threading and broaching. They have been engraved including a unique serial number that is tracked for the ATF. Then they are media blasted and are type 3 hard anodized. All of that for a retail of $53.
Some friends and I had a machine shop in Utah make a small run of custom scope mounts for lever action rifles a few years ago. They were top quality. The price was $35 each including anodizing and mounting hardware.
AR15 scope mounts are extremely common. Someone has to be making these things with good materials and workmanship without the excessive price tag. I've worked in an aluminum factory (casting, rolling, heat treating, machining) for 10 years and have spent over 20 years in industrial manufacturing. These could be made in the USA out of quality materials and still be sold for under $75.
Most people on a tight budget just want a nice, reliable rifle that will serve them well and can't afford the time more than anything to go through this repeating process, and they will almost always blame the barrel or the ammo when it is a crappy mount with non-aligned rings, incrementally-resolving binding on the rings with the soft imitation/poor anodizing over soft alloy, and fasteners that gall a lot before snapping with just a touch too much torque.
Thanks again. Your experience is invaluable and I always learn something when reading your posts.Engineer, FFL and Pastor
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I can't stay silent in this thread any longer. You want something that works for as cheap as possible. We all do, but you get what you pay for in optics. As 52' said these shooting platforms are incredibly violent in the recoil; because they are semi automatic and because they are light frames. The first thing to go is be the rifle's repeatability and it may be an incremental thing as the erector mechanism moves fractionally with each shot fired. You will blame it on everything more obvious; the wind, the ammo, the barrel, you... but it is the scope.
Leupold Mk 4's have two spring leafs holding the erector mechanism still while the Mk 1-3's have only one. The Mk 4's cost more. Solid one-piece scope mounts with a minimum of two screws per ring cost more than the cheapest Chinese clone.
My thoughts are that you should spend as much on the scope as the rest of the rifle - So it is half the total cost. If that means you wait a bit longer as you save up the pennies then so be it. You won't regret it in the long run because the scope should last a lifetime. I don't know your financial situation so forgive me if me if I'm out of line but there are no short cuts, no stand-outs that are the exception. Perhaps a quality second hand scope from someone who has looked after it. Perhaps it becomes a long term project where you use iron sights in the interim.
I would lean to a second hand Nightforce for a semi-auto. Nightforce are built like tanks so even though second hand it is unlikely to be damaged. Something along the lines of a 2.5-10*42 NSX - a good all-rounder for near and far, and they don't cost as much as their bigger scopes..
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Klem! I was wondering when you'd show up. Thanks for the information on the Leopold Mk4 vs Mk1-3 that is very helpful. Your insight is always taken to heart. I'm not disagreeing with what you say, just trying to find something that the locals can afford and isn't junk. You are correct that the financial situation is the issue.
I live in the small town of Orient (about 100 people) in the middle of the Colville national forest.
In the last couple of weeks I've had two women come up to me and say that they would like to buy a scope. One for her husband and the other for her dad. The Redfield was pushing the budget for the daughter and a Leopold Mk1 was the most that the wife could afford. I made no money on the transactions, but I know that they received a "good quality" scope and if they have troubles with them later on they will be taken care of by a reputable company. I run my FFL/store out of my home at cost. What pays the bills is engineering work that I do for 20 hours a week via the internet. The rest of my time is spent volunteering as the local ffl, firearms repairs, handy man and pastor. Most of my gun business is replacing broken firing pins, worn out extractors and flat springs on old shotguns, 22lr rifles and 30-30s. I replace broken parts and would not call myself a "gunsmith", but they are appreciative of someone who can keep granddad's old single shot working.
There are three main types of people here:
1. Retired people who live out here for the view. They last 10-20 years before being forced back into town due to heath reasons. They don't ever really come into Orient. They go up into Canada or down into Colville or Spokane.
2. Ranchers that have been in the surrounding area for generations. I love these people. Hard working and the salt of the earth. They can afford a bit more for guns and optics. What Klem and 52' recommend is what I will pass on to them.
3. People who were born here and can't afford to leave. Many trace their lineage back to the old mines from the early 1900's when the town was settled. Some still live in the same spot that their great grandpa built almost 100 years ago. When the house finally falls over or burns down, they haul in anything that resembles living quarters. They don't make much money since all the mines have long been closed. There are still a few saw mills about 20-30 minutes away that keeps this little town running. These people are my friends and neighbors. I want to help them as much as I can. Just two days ago the town put on a Christmas potluck and gift exchange. I got three bags of microwave popcorn
Here are some pictures that I took of Orient. These are in town, right on or just off of Main Street.
Home sweet home.jpg
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Neighbors.jpg
Typical house.jpg
Stick Built house.jpg
Here are some pictures of a local ranch.
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IMG_5735.JPGEngineer, FFL and Pastor
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Originally posted by Bigs28 View PostI've seen used vortex viper pst gen1 2.5-10x32 for around $500 on ar15.com. With the lifetime warranty I wouldn't worry about them being used.
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Originally posted by Frontier Gear View PostKlem! I was wondering when you'd show up. Thanks for the information on the Leopold Mk4 vs Mk1-3 that is very helpful. Your insight is always taken to heart. I'm not disagreeing with what you say, just trying to find something that the locals can afford and isn't junk. You are correct that the financial situation is the issue.
I live in the small town of Orient (about 100 people) in the middle of the Colville national forest.
In the last couple of weeks I've had two women come up to me and say that they would like to buy a scope. One for her husband and the other for her dad. The Redfield was pushing the budget for the daughter and a Leopold Mk1 was the most that the wife could afford. I made no money on the transactions, but I know that they received a "good quality" scope and if they have troubles with them later on they will be taken care of by a reputable company. I run my FFL/store out of my home at cost. What pays the bills is engineering work that I do for 20 hours a week via the internet. The rest of my time is spent volunteering as the local ffl, firearms repairs, handy man and pastor. Most of my gun business is replacing broken firing pins, worn out extractors and flat springs on old shotguns, 22lr rifles and 30-30s. I replace broken parts and would not call myself a "gunsmith", but they are appreciative of someone who can keep granddad's old single shot working.
There are three main types of people here:
1. Retired people who live out here for the view. They last 10-20 years before being forced back into town due to heath reasons. They don't ever really come into Orient. They go up into Canada or down into Colville or Spokane.
2. Ranchers that have been in the surrounding area for generations. I love these people. Hard working and the salt of the earth. They can afford a bit more for guns and optics. What Klem and 52' recommend is what I will pass on to them.
3. People who were born here and can't afford to leave. Many trace their lineage back to the old mines from the early 1900's when the town was settled. Some still live in the same spot that their great grandpa built almost 100 years ago. When the house finally falls over or burns down, they haul in anything that resembles living quarters. They don't make much money since all the mines have long been closed. There are still a few saw mills about 20-30 minutes away that keeps this little town running. These people are my friends and neighbors. I want to help them as much as I can. Just two days ago the town put on a Christmas potluck and gift exchange. I got three bags of microwave popcorn
Here are some pictures that I took of Orient. These are in town, right on or just off of Main Street.
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Here are some pictures of a local ranch.
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Price points are $150 or less, with some deals online under $100.
The 2-7x32 Crossfire II is a great little economy centerfire rifle scope.
You can get Vortex Viper rings in 3 different heights to go with the Crossfire scopes. They have 4 fasteners per ring and decent cross bolts, can be had for $54.
This is what I would recommend for the people in that price point range, and they still get the Vortex VIP warranty.NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
www.AR15buildbox.com
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Last edited by dl126; 12-24-2017, 09:28 AM.
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Originally posted by jhoyda View PostYes, it has shot off on a tangent.
After reading LRRPF52's reply my initial thinking was he is probably absolutely correct in the abstract. However, what do I care? This is a range toy with the occasional ground hog thrown in. If it breaks, I'll just send it in for repair. I'm really leaning towards the SWFA right now, I like the MIL Quad reticle.
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For the price nothing beats the SWFA fixed powers.
As I have read elsewhere, the 10X is approved by the US military after passing all their tests for ruggedness and tracking.
Tracking is the most important attribute if you ever intend to touch the turrets.
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For my purposes the SWFA 3-15 has been a choice that I have not regretted. I wanted something with a top end power of around 14x or 15x, an adjustable parallax for close range work, first focal plane, mil rad reticle and turrets, accurate and repeatable tracking, ruggedly built and moderate overall weight and 30mm diameter. Price was a factor, but I have always been willing to follow the principle of buy once cry once. I looked at alot of scopes. I owned a Nightforce 5-20 NXS which was an excellent scope, but I decided I wanted to go FFP and mil-rad for all my scopes, so I traded it for the SWFA 3-15. I frankly did not see much difference in the optics, and the only thing I really missed about the Nightforce was the illuminated reticle. IMHO the 3-15 power range is about ideal for the 6.5 G. My old eyes need the higher end for most conditions,but I can dial it back if necessary.
Most reviewers downgrade the SWFA for lack of a zero stop, and, if an illuminated reticle is necessary for you, that is not available. For me, the zero stop is not as important as just having turrets with repeatable adjustments. Next best option would be the Nightforce HST 4-16, but I can't really see that I need an illuminated reticle for another $500 +. I have the 3x-15x on two 6.5G's and three different 300 Blackouts and used them in various light conditions, including almost dark, past legal shooting light and have not had a problem picking up the crosshairs even under marginal conditions.
I do believe in the importance of a solid mounting system. I have the Larue QD on one of my AR's and the Bobro QD on 2 others. On the bolt actions I like EGW low rings. Once they are set and adjusted, I don't have to worry about them.
There are certainly plenty of as good or better scopes out there, but for the money and the overall quality, it is tough to beat SWFA. The mil-quad reticle is simple and it works well for hold-overs and adjustments. The fact that I have the same reticle on multiple rifles makes switching between them extremely easy.
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