Dynamic Shooting - the case for illuminated Horus Reticles?

[kansas]

I've known for sometime that many people don't like Horus reticles.

I've known for a shorter period of time that some people depend on using Horus reticles.

The basic case is "no-dial" shooting.

A more detailed statement of the case is "multi-unknown distance targets within short time frame"

And another aspect is "movers" ... so

"multi-unknown distance targets including some movers within a short time frame"

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And one additional aspect for me is use with thermal clipons. With NV clipons the "green hue" is such that I don't recall ever being unable to see a reticle with NV clipons. However, with thermal clipons with black and white only, I have seen situations where the reticles are harder to see. I suspect others have noticed this issue as well, because some thermal scopes have auto-switching (white to black and black to white) of the reticles. So, net/net this means illumination can help with thermal clipons. And further, with horus reticles, at night, with clipons, sometimes you are counting dots, for your hold and that takes time and increases chance of error, so illumination in general can help as the illumination makes it much easier and faster to position yourself when aiming with the no-dial technique.
Oh and for movers, I think one would need to zoom out. These reticles can support shooting at movers up to 60 mph (see page 1 below) ... so the ability to zoom out (for movers) and zoom in (for longer distance holds) is useful also.

PDF of tremor-3 illuminated reticle. The illumination is shown on page 4 of 5.

https://horusvision.com/download/horus_tremor3_reticle_technical_specs.pdf

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So, to restate, the questions I am trying to answer are:

01 - Are Horus reticles worth the extra cost for shooting in "multi-unknown distances targets including some movers within a short time frame"

02 - Is illumination of Horus reticles worth the extra cost when using Thermal clipons or otherwise ?

03 - What are the benefits of the Tremor-3 "ability to calibrate wind dots" and how does that work exactly ?
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There are the 3 options I've found that are under $3k and have low elevation turrets. Low elevation turrets are an advantage because shooter can then read the back of the display of a 12 o'clock mounted (on top of the scope) LRF such as RAPTAR or Radius with non-aiming eye without having to removing aiming eye from the target. Allowing "integrated" and rapid ranging of moving targets.

NightForce 4-16x F1 ATACR HT-3 street price estimate $2,600

https://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-atacr-f1-zerohold-riflescope.html

US Optics 3.2-17x HT-3 street price estimate $2,600

https://www.usoptics.com/military/sniper/

US Optics 5-25x HT-3 street price estimate $2,900

https://www.usoptics.com/military/sniper/

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Pic of current setup. The scope I've been practicing with is L&S Mk6 3-18x H59 no illumination. I need to practice some more to determine how critical I think illumination is. When cranked to maximum magnification (18x) the reticle is easy to see against all backgrounds I've observed so far. I also think running thermal clipon on black hot and cranking up the brightness (which whitens the background) will help, but this needs to be done before hand).



Note in the pic the 14 and 14 mount are on the back to enabled zeroing the LRF to the day scope reticle. These are removed with the thermal clipon is mounted. I took everything in and out of the house all mounted on the rifle, so I wouldn't have to carry separate parts. But the 14 and 14 mount were removed before the thermal clipon was mounted. As shown the config is non-functional.

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Thanks for any and all input!


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p.s. I am thinking of trying these techniques hog hunting, where we have multiple unknown distance movers when we are facing a field of multiple sounders. We might start <100yds from the closest ones, but once they start running it is not unusual to still have them in sight at >300yds. Though with the hunting reticles we usually have in our thermal scopes, taking shoots at those distances is "a wing and a prayer".

[kansas]

I guess it is worth separately posting the illumination pic for the tremor-3

[bj139]

That is an incredible reticle.

As someone commented on one of my past posts, "Fire Torpedos!!!"

[LRRPF52]

My input for the Horus reticles is that they are great if you have more dry terrain where misses are easily seen.

In the green, the bullet usually gets sucked up by vegetation and dark earth, producing minimal shot registers.

Biggest thing with them is practice/training time using them for what you intend to do. There's a learning curve.

For 300yd shots and in, you won't have a lot of drop, but will want windage leads. A regular hash-based scope is plenty for this because you aren't going to be over 1.3 mils of drop at 300yds.

With as high as your optic is over bore, you might consider another zero range other than 100yds as well, like 175yds. 175yd zero with 123gr SST will put you right at 1 mil of drop at 300, making it easier for reference under time stress in the reticle whether you go Horus or not. Then all your windage leads will be on clear planes bracketed within the crosshairs and 1 Mil, with close windage hashes or dots as reference points near the focal area in the center of the reticle.

If you look at the above Tremor-3 reticle for your intended use, only about 1 of those stadia lines will be useful since you're within 300yds. It's really more beneficial for a long-range shooter.

[kansas]

Thanks for the input !!!

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Well, in Kansas we have a lot of dry terrain, though where I am, in the Flint Hills, and specifically where I am, along a creek, we have lots of hills and cricks and trees. So, on my land we have both, dry and vegetation. But in general in Kansas, we have a lot of dry.

I got the L&S Mk6 3-18x H58 in April 2014, And used it mostly on 7.62(16) and .22LR(16). Used the .22LR(16) to help me learn scopes and the H58 was a part of that. Shot the .22LR(16) from 50 out to 300yds using "no-dial" Found those little dots on the half mils to be very useful and the dark line at 10 mils also. Since I was almost always shooting at night (I work during the day) I had an Armasight CO-LR on there for night shooting. I had never shot scoped rifles before I moved out to our ranch and so I had a lot to learn.

I had 11.5 inches of drop, IIRC, with eley edge 40gr at 300yds with the .22LR(16).

I have an MSS buddy who pounds on me to zero at 100yds, so I've been doing that lately. But for hunting, I have generally been double zeroing at 50/200, though that varies some depending on the cartridge. People shooting with heavy subs have a lot of drop (I am not among them for non.22LR hunting). I do like 50/200 and it is true than you can set your zero stop higher and hold down and I've done that also for target shooting like setting zero stop to 500yds and holding down (to the chagrin of MSS buddy!).
I will be using the 123SST with the 6.5G(18) for hog hunting this winter.

I did a poor job of explaining my use cases
I mentioned hog hunting, multiple sounder example as that is about the only case I can think of where the H reticles might come in to play a bit. And there are really two subcases where the H reticles can help, the movers case (reducing arithmetic or even memorization in head) and distance holds. The RAPTAR can do the ranging, then the primary variables are the shooter (as always) and the speed est.
But my primary shooter buddy and I also do a lot of distance shooting ... and for me that is mostly at night and out to 900yds on IPSC -D heated steel (12x24 silhouettes). So this is where the illumination of the tremor-3 might help. Though the H-59 and Tremor-2 have similar illumination available.

The main plus of the Tremor-3 seems to be the ability to adjust the wind dots. I found the user manual.

I guess this is the "civilian" version anyway

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/User%20Guides/Tremor%203%20presentation%20civ.pdf

And it explains how to do the "wind dots" though I fear, I might need to read it another 99 times before it sinks in, but at least here it is.

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So, if I do this, I think it would be either the Nightforce ATACR 4-16x or the US Optics 3.2-17x (with the tremor-3) ... anyone have any distinguishing thoughts about either of those? I think they would both work for my cases, which include low elevation turret, so I can read the distance of the back of the RAPTAR and/or Radius.

[StoneHendge]

Not a lot of time this am, but i’ll Mention I’m a big H59 fan. Something like this might be a good compromise.

http://bushnell.com/all-products/rifle-scopes/elite-tactical/lrtsi-4-5-18x-44mm

I have the Non illuminated LRTS 3-12 on my 18” grendel Carbine and the glass is top notch and the wide, low turret is absolutely dreamy - easy to see and super positive feedback. I generally do reticle holds with it until the wind values start getting into the teens

[kansas]

Stone ... thanks for the input!



That's a nice simple/clean reticle with a lot of illumination! And I think for target shooting with my 6.5G(18) with the Federal loaded 130gr Berger Hybrid, it is good for holding out to 800yds in most wind I face. But for hunting, if you want to be able to cover yotes up to 40 MPH, you need 25 mils of hold on the lower power end and the Horus reticles can do that, whereas I'm not sure that Bushy can.

But for a budget Horus work-alike the bushy is not bad at all!

[kansas]

... you have more dry terrain where misses are easily seen.

In the green, the bullet usually gets sucked up by vegetation and dark earth, producing minimal shot registers ...

Interestingly in my experience team shooting with a thermal clipon on the shooter rifle and using the mk3 35mm on 4x digital (10x net) magnification, shooting IPSC-D (12x24) heated steel out to 900yds, as the spotter, I was able to see:

Targets
Trace of the bullets
Misses
Hits

And I would say, better than in the day time.

And shooting solo on my land, even in damp ground I can often see "white spots" on the ground (if I am shooting on white hot) where a miss hits even if just briefly, might be bullet fragment more so than hot ground.

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When I have shot with NV at night, there was often very little feedback on misses, but with thermal there is actually more. And in some conditions even more feedback than I get in the day. Might not be intuitive, but that is what I've observed.


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I do think I will be unlikely to be heavily using that part of the reticle between 10 mils and 20 mils elevation. The 6.5G(18) with the Berger 130 hybrid in current conditions tops out at 10 mils at 900yds which is my maximum practice distance.

If I ever put an H reticle on the .300WM(24) or the .50BMG(32) ...

Well with the .50 under current conditions, the 750gr bullet I use for .50BMGsupply and shooting on the ELR 1200-2400 stage at a ranch I go to farther West, at 2400yds I am holding up 25.3 mils and 2.8 mils for a 10 MPH wind. So if I ever put an H reticle on the .50BMG I could use that lower part of the reticle if I could see the target on the lower power. I would have to be at to use the 25.3 mil hold on the reticle and that would probably be under 6x magnification I packed up my H58 so I can't check it ... but I think at 9x I can see 12 mils of elevation hold. So that is the real limitation. How much magnification do you need to quarter the target? They use "Abe Lincoln" sized silhouettes on that stage beyond 1300yds (my name for 'em) and they are taller and wider than the NATO-E sized targets (19.5 x 40) they use for 500 to 1400 yd distances but from 1200-1400 I would want has much magnification as I can get, so I think there is a tip over point where the H-reticles aren't able to help much for ELR target shooting due to the need for magnification trumping the ability to use the lower part of the reticle for holding.

So, currently my plan is to keep my "regular" SCR-MIL reticles for the longer distance bolt guns ...

[StoneHendge]

Stone ... thanks for the input!


That's a nice simple/clean reticle with a lot of illumination! And I think for target shooting with my 6.5G(18) with the Federal loaded 130gr Berger Hybrid, it is good for holding out to 800yds in most wind I face. But for hunting, if you want to be able to cover yotes up to 40 MPH, you need 25 mils of hold on the lower power end and the Horus reticles can do that, whereas I'm not sure that Bushy can.

But for a budget Horus work-alike the bushy is not bad at all!

Yeah, just picked up my 3x12 and you can get out to 30 Mils at 6x, but you have to count Mils past 8. Probably not ideal when a yote is running 40 mph!

[kansas]

If I use existing Burris xtr2 3-15x SCR-MIL for hog hunting ... and zero for the 123 SST at 300yds then I have a double zero at 39yds. The maximum elevation variation is 6.9 inches between 155 and 185 yards. So roughly aiming down half a foot between 100 and 200yds and otherwise holding down 3 inches between 200-300 and between 50-100 then up 6 inches from 325 to 350. Using the target as the reticle.



The pic is with the scope on 6.5x magnification. This allows a critter to still be visible in the reticle and also allowing a hold for up to 40 mph of crossing speed. When we are hog hunting, for some reason we get about 1/3rd as many yotes as we do hogs.

So optimizing for movers, the SCR-MIL reticle can actually get the job done and not so differently that the Tremor-3 I think. Hence, I think I agree with LRRPF52 that the Tremor-3 does not offer any stupendous advantage for this use case. So the case for the tremor-3 must lie with dynamic shooting farther out, which for us (my shooting buddy and I) will lie in the realm of target shooting.

In fact, since I am now "upgrading" the Trijicon Mk3 from 35mm focal length to 60mm focal length and since that takes the optical magnification from 2.5x to 4.5x, the reticle support from the mk3 for the hog/coyote use case is not so different from that of the SCR-MIL. Double zeroing at 39/300 and using the target as the reticle for elevation holding, we place the "hard part" closer in and try to make the elevation holding easier around 300yds our intended maximum engagement distance.



For 100-200 yd engagements I usually use the top reticle the TCR, but for the 300yd case I would probably use the TSR which has 5 mil has marks.

[kansas]

Numbers:

6.5x magnification

40 MPH = 25 MILS

32 MPH = 20 MILS

24 MPH = 15 MILS

16 MPH = 10 MILS

08 MPH = 05 MILS

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29/300yd double zero

350yds 6.5 inches up
325yds 2.9 inches up
300yds 0.0
250yds 4.4 inches down
200yds 6.6 inches down
150yds 6.8 inches down
100yds 5.2 inches down
050yds 1.9 inches down
039yds 0.0