New Pulsar Thermal Rifle Scope 30mm Tube, looks like normal scope

[LRRPF52]

http://pulsarnv.com/thermion/

[Sticks]

Anything new in the normal daylight digital scopes other than ATN?

[Double Naught Spy]

The Thermion scopes look pretty nice. Pulsar has upped the native magnification over their Trail units in 640 resolution to 1.9x (versus Trail's 1.6x) (50mm XP models) and also upped it considerably to up to 5.5x in the 320 resolution XM model 50mm, but each has lower magnification and smaller lensed counterparts as well that will cost less. The 640 model is 17 micron (distance between thermal pixels) and the 320 is 12 micron. The smaller the micron distance, the better the image can become. So I am expected that despite having 1/4 the resolution* of the 640 models, the 320 models may actually perform better at the same levels of magnification.

* - Some people think that a 640x480 resolution optic has double the resolution of a 320x240 unit because the numbers are halved. The 640 actually has 4 times the resolution because with are dealing with a 2D plane. For simple math's sake, a 2x2 block is not twice as big as a 1x1 block, but 4 times as big.

Take the XP50 640 resolution at 1.9x. Digitally zoom it 2 times to 3.8x and you have a 320 resolution image.
Take the XM50 320 resolution at 5.5x. It has the same resolution and greater magnification as the XP50, with the same lens size and smaller micron size. So by the time the XP50 is bumped up to 5.5x, it is going to be less resolution, larger micron size, and hence should not have as good of an image.
Now the XM38 with a smaller 38mm lens will come in with a base magnification of 4.2x. Compared to the XP digitally zoomed 2 times to 3.8x, I suspect the images will be fairly comparable, each with some gives and takes. In the XM38, the advantages would be slightly more magnification for the same resolution plus the smaller micron size. The shortcoming is the smaller lens.

Where the XP models excel more in in the wider FOV with lower levels of magnification. For a person who does a lot of scanning with their rifle or a lot of shorter range hunting (primarily inside 100 yards), this can be very advantageous.

So what does all this mean? For the person shooting longer distances or shooting smaller targets, going with the XM models might be the better way to go to save $$ while getting increased performance at range. This is because if they had the XP version of the scope, they would likely be zooming in to get a larger object anyway, reducing resolution in the process. So why not start off with the higher level of magnification for the comparable level of resolution?

Anything new in the normal daylight digital scopes other than ATN?

Yes, the Sightmark Wraith looks like it will be really cool. Color digital daylight HD, B&W digital NV. It is still going to need an IR illuminator and comes with what looks to be a good one.

http://www.sightmark.com/product2.php?item=1172

List price is $600 and is already being presold by vendors for $500.

[Sticks]

Thank your for the EDU on the thermals and the link to Sightmark. $500, I may have to play with that, and hope that someone comes up with a LiPo battery pack that will double or triple the power life. 4.5 hours runtime is awful short.

[Double Naught Spy]

Sticks, I don't know what "LiPo" means, but the Wraith has an external micro USB port for an external supply and if the scope is like just about all the others in the electro-optics industry, you are going to be able to power it with a simply power bank like you might use to recharge your cell phone. That is what I am doing to run two other scopes right now. So it could be done fairly inexpensively.

As for 4.5 hours being a short run time on batteries, thermal scopes tend to get 2-4 hours max unless they are running a battery pack like Pulsars do now.

[Sticks]

A LiPo battery is the next step above a Li Ion battery. More power, smaller package, longer life....also a bit more volatile and need to be very strict about charging and maintenance with it. It is the primary batteries used in RC Multirotors due to the power to weight ratio over the traditional Li Ion battery packs.

[Klem]

There's not a lot of difference between Li-ion, Li-Po and LiFe batteries. Li-ion uses a liquid electrolyte whereas Lithium Polymer uses a polymer electrolyte.

Lithium-ion is slightly more energy dense than Lithium-Polymer (it's actually Li-ion-Polymer but everyone refers to it by the abbreviated Li-Po). Li-ion is also cheaper to manufacturer than Li-Po. This is why it is preferred in most smart devices to LiPo. LiPo however is less volatile (safer) than Li-ion and more stable, meaning you get more cycles or life out of the battery. It also lends itself to flat packs while still retaining a decent amount of power, which is why you often see it sold as rectangular thin packs. If you get on sites such as DealExtreme, Kaidomain and Battery Junction you will always find the Li-ion batteries cheaper. This is also because there is more demand for Li-ion. Compared to the old NiCad and NiMH batteries lithium batteries have relatively low self-discharge. This means you can charge and store them for weeks without worrying that they are slowly discharging. Li-Po is slightly better in the self-discharge stakes than Li-ion but not by much. Both need battery management to prevent overcharge, over-discharge and to regulate amps. Battery packs often come with a PCB (protection circuit board) however you can buy these separately if you are building your own. The most common and cheapest Li-ion cell is the old computer laptop battery, the '18650' (18mm in diameter and 65mm in length). Both Li-ion and Li-Po have similar voltage ranges; 4.15V fully charged, down to 3V when the PCB cuts off the voltage to prevent over-discharge and damage. This is why lithium cells are referred to by their average voltage output...3.6 or 3.7V.

All lithium type battery packs are susceptible to getting out of balance, especially if you draw a lot of power from them. One cell will typically have more internal resistance than the others so will reach 3V cut-off sooner than the others. Then the whole pack is shut off by the PCB even though there is useful power left in the other cells. By the same token when you charge it back up one cells will reach full first and shut off charging to the other cells, even though they have not yet reached full. This gets worse with each cycle until the pack appears as if it is worn out. If you balance the pack you are back to new again. Smart chargers have this balancing facility, although balance charging takes longer than normal charging. The more cells in a pack, the more exposed to becoming unbalanced. Mobile phones are typically only one or two cells so mitigate the risk of becoming unbalanced by operating on low voltages.

If you wanted to build your own pack I would find out what voltage your device operates on and how much power (Amps) it draws. Then consider how long this voltage and power will be needed. This will tell you what size cell is required. No sense in building a bigger pack than you need as this is cost, weight and bulk. You can then either buy an off-the-shelf pack or build your own to the shape you want.

Lithium battery packs are multiples of single cell ranges. 3.6V (1-cell), 7.2V (2-cells), 11.8V (3-cells) and so on. Unless you regulate the voltage then your 7.2V pack is actually 8.2V when fully charged and slowly discharges to 6V when the PCB cuts off power supply.

I use Li-ion batteries for all my needs. They are cheap, more energy dense than LiPo and easier to find.

[Double Naught Spy]

Thank you, Klem, for the lesson. I will get a bag of ice to put on my head for a little while until the swelling goes down.

Getting back to the OP's post on the Thermion, the Thermion has an internal rechareable battery plus the option for two sizes of supplemental batteries that fit right in the top turret. So you should not be needing an external power supply for it. The Thermion is imported by Sellmark here in Texas who also has the brand Sigthmark, which makes the Wraith digitial night vision noted above (see how I brought it all back together? ).

[TexHill]

Caveat Emptor! Do not buy the $500 Sightmark thinking that you're going to get the same performance as a Pulsar, FLIR, or Trijicon that sells for ten times as much. The Sightmark offerings don't have the same image quality, and they won't take heavy recoil like the more expensive scopes do.

[Double Naught Spy]

Sightmark will handle their recoil rating and if there is a problem, are backed up by Sellmark who has excellent customer service.

No, none of the Sightmark digital NV scopes will give you the same performance as Pulsar, FLIR, or Trijicon THERMAL scopes. These are two different types of platform. Trijicon does not even make night vision. FLIR doesn't make digital night vision and are fairly new in traditional NV. Pulsar makes digital nv and thermal. Sightmark makes digital nv. Nobody has suggested you would get the same performance.

Now, Pulsar does make their Digisight series, where their newer models are 2-4 times the price of the Wraith, but with similar image quality.

The Wraith is tested to .308. Don't shoot it from .300 win mag, .338 Lapua, etc. Of course, that goes for a lot of traditional NV scopes as well, many of which do cost 10 times as much.

[TexHill]

Sightmark will handle their recoil rating and if there is a problem, are backed up by Sellmark who has excellent customer service.

Then your experience with Sightmark and recoil is totally different than mine. I managed a gun store for two years - we were a Sightmark dealer - and we had multiple units brought back to our store because they wouldn't hold zero after being used on anything with more recoil than a 5.56. You are correct, Sightmark does have a great warranty, but I would prefer that I not have to use it.

[Klem]

'Bag of ice'...LOL. Well, if it helps I have no clue about thermal scopes.

(just don't expect 'three times' the power by using LiPo)

[HuntTXhogs]

Then your experience with Sightmark and recoil is totally different than mine. I managed a gun store for two years - we were a Sightmark dealer - and we had multiple units brought back to our store because they wouldn't hold zero after being used on anything with more recoil than a 5.56. You are correct, Sightmark does have a great warranty, but I would prefer that I not have to use it.

I’ve owned 3 photons , the original, and 2 XTs in both magnifications .

I’ve recommended them to all my cost conscientious friends and have assisted them with coming to know the ins and outs of digital NV.

None of the more than a dozen XT units I touched had issues.

The original model did have some teething problems.

Do you remember if the models you sold were the original, simply known as the Sightmark Photon ?

I’ve shot the XTs on 450 bushmaster and 458 Socom , 1 unit blinked off on the Socom but a change in muzzle brake corrected that issue.

Most often I find that due to the low cost of these devices , they’re making it into the hands of inexperienced users who report zeroing issues when they have a harder time zeroing the optics. It isn’t as refined of a shooting system as a 3x9 or higher mag conventional scope...

I just want to reiterate , if an XT Photon isn’t taking 5.56 recoil I would have to wonder what they did to it “off camera”

[diddlyv]

Wraith or XT photon??? Will shoot off either a Grendel or a .458 socom. Given what and original trapdoor springfield does to ones shoulder using standard for the period black powder loads. My plan is to shoot 325 grain bullets at between 1500 and 1600 fps generating slightly less than 1900 ft pounds of energy vs the 2400 ft lbs of energy of a 150 grain .308 doing 2700 ft per second. I think the scope should handle that, is my logic all screwed up or is recoil more a function of energy vs caliber??
In any case is the Wraith a better value even with the higher cost??

Once the socom is built and at the range will be easy to tell percieved recoil vs any of my .308 rifles.

[HuntTXhogs]

Wraith !