How much magnification is necessary?

[FLshooter]

Ok was just wondering. Your first post seemed more like a sales pitch for a barrel then a reply to the OP's question.

I use to use a 4-16 as well but now useing a 4-20 later on when it's time for a upgrade I think I'm going with something closer to 30 power.

OP. Your getting great advice on the power of scope needed too accomplish what your wanting from the more senior members.

I mentioned what scope I had in my 1st post.You must’ve skipped it.
Anyway,I have 2 Nightforce Benchrest 8-32x56 moa scopes.Both on Ruger precision rifles(6.5 CM and 308) Very nice scopes.And sort of affordable compared to the NXS line.When conditions are good,I like cranking it up to 32x.
But,with the mirage we get in Florida.And it’s mostly in the summer months.You really can’t go much higher than 20 power,if that.
When I shot 850yrds out at the farm,two of the fellas had 10x or 20x fixed power scopes for the morning shoots.They’d hit 1/2” thick 12” steel targets .

[LR1955]

@LR55
Thanks for the info, I appreciate the cander immensely. My main reason for the Grendel is I have serious shoulder issues in both shoulders (do not want to get into medical issues on an open forum, if you are interested I could explain that via PM) which is why l liked the Grendel, seemed to pack a good distance in a non-sbr package w/ manageable recoil (for me) and does what the 5.56 really cannot do (not trying to start a 5.56 vs Grendel war, but we all know why we are here)
I need a gas gun to reduce recoil as much as possible. I was very recently considering a 6.5C w/ a 16" or even 18" barrel ofthinking of 1000yds @ my altitude of ~1350'ASL, but realisticly I cannot fathom how I could be using a larger capacity case, a heavier bullet and any way get less recoil - if I am wrong, please let me know. From what I have read moving to an 18" barrel in the Grendel will not make much of a difference in velocity, I think I read that I would gain ~25-50fps at most.
Unfortunately my situation is not one that I can just "go to the gym and build muscle", trust me me, if my problem was that easy, it would not be a proble but my problem is much worse as the muscles in that area do not work correctly.
If I were to set my goal to say a max of 600yds, could that be consistently capable from the limitations of the Grendel case/bullet choice w/ a max bullet weight of ,~125gr?
I could do the remote camera setup having knowledge of audio/video transmission, especially line of sight w/ no obstacles between the transmitter & receiver using highly directional antennas w/ decent gain, that part seems to be the best option for seeing the holes (assuming the range I will be going to does not have an issue with such a setup, which is something I would need to verify before going that route), or if the range has an issue with it, just go old skool and check targets when it is time to check targets, which I believe is every 15min at the range I go to.
I went with the 16" barrel as it makes for a nicely sized rifle IMHO, punching above it's weight class and according to info I have read, delivers nearly ,,~900 lb of energy ~300-350+ yds, which checks off another box for me.
For me shooting has always been a way to relax, knowing I have a rifle capable of the ballistics the Grendel has, well I felt like it was everything I wanted and more. I was a bit shocked about the optic needed was a bit of an eye opener, but modifications are not an issue that cannot be changed on my end.
The shoulder issues I have kept out if the conversation until now (if memory serves me correctly) but it is the driving force in the rifle I have laid out, at this point all I need is a SA Adj gas block, optic & a A1 (5/8x24 in a 7.62 size) flash hider and time for the build to start.
IF there is a way to do a 16-18" in 6.5C then I am all ears in about the same weight I am all ears but I am pretty sure I went down that rode originally and weight was recently higher as was price even before we got into ammo costs. Plus, don't forget that 4-6 months out of the year I will be going periodically to an area where it is ~5000'ASL .
Dropping $7K+ is just not doable for the foreseeable future.
Again, I thank you for your feedback & cander, gotta get some sleep,
Bob

Bob:

Roger the shoulder issues. Bad stuff.

Guys do shoot their Grendel at distances to 1K. The more successful ones are doing so at ranges that are in the 5K feet above sea level range where the air is thinner and the bullets travel farther. However, even they will tell you that winds give them problems because of the lower velocities of a 30 grain, 6.5mm cartridge. A 120 grain 6.5 bullet with a G1 of .500 (for example) and a MV of 2550 does not shoot any better from a Grendel than any other cartridge shooting the same bullet at the same velocity. I do not believe you are competitive so it probably doesn't matter. However, the same bullet at 2900 fps will give you a much higher chance of success at longer distances simply because it has less wind drift. And you are right, you will get more recoil than the same bullet shot at 2550 fps. That is the trade off you make. You can shoot a much lighter bullet at a much faster velocity but chances are it will only equal the heavier bullet shot slower. May have less recoil but probably not enough to make a difference.

Maybe a decent question would be what your standards are for performance at 500, 600, 800, and 1000. Could well be that a $500.00 scope and some factory loads may be just fine based on your standards.

LR55

[Klem]

Bob,

You've also mentioned you want to get into reloading. that is another chunk of money, time and learning curve. This will be an interesting part of shooting and yes, you will be able to tune more accurate loads than factory for specific guns.

Both the Grendel and the AR15 are not suited for long range shooting. You won't see either at long range competitions save the occasional aficionado of this calibre. Just because the bullet can get there if you point it into the air does not mean you will be happy with the results, especially when you shoot alongside someone with a larger calibre bolt gun. Add to that the advice you are receiving about low cost scopes and my hat goes off to you for handicapping yourself to such an extent. The poster who claims to have multiple scopes and advocating price as a key criterion due to better resale value, and the ability of a cheap scope to be almost as good as a good scope belies the reality of long range shooting. Everything needs to be perfect to achieve such extreme goals. Having multiple guns and compromising quality to save dollars is one way of enjoying a shooting lifestyle, while having only one or two guns and being able to fit them out with the best possible equipment is another way. At 1,000yd you will get better results with the latter.

Getting back to your situation, a heavier gun absorbs more recoil than a stock AR15. It will help your shoulder but also reduce jump, which helps accuracy. If you can make that gun as heavy as possible and shoot from a rest with rear bag (not bipod) this will offset some of the other handicaps. One possibility is to attach a 3" wide metal plate weighing as much as possible to the underside of the handguard. Or make a lead saddle to sling over the top of the handguard to keep the gun from jumping. While the saddle is easier to take on and off the plate will also stop axial recoil, which is the anti-clockwise jerk you get from right-hand twist barrels. If you use a fixed stock it will ride the rear rest better. If you look at F-Class competition stocks the bottom of the stock at the back is parallel to the bore axis, so in recoil the barrel is still pointing at the target when the bullet exits the barrel.

One more thought, you mention Grendel vs. 223. Some F-Class Standard shooters shoot 1,000yds using 223. But to get there they need 30" barrels and load up to 50% above the SAAMI safe limit. So, an 80gn bullet pushing 2,950fps MV from a gun that weighs 8kg. If the rules allowed the gun to be heavier all shooters would pile it on. As the bullet slows down approaching the sound barrier it starts to wobble and become unstable. In 223, group sizes after 900yds start to blow out. Your slow Grendel from a slow 16" barrel is going to do the same. It is difficult not painting a doom and gloom picture of what is going to happen but if you are about to buy a long range scope then you will be wanting to turn the gun below it into something it is not...or get a better suited gun for what you want to achieve.

Another thought is to get a heavy profile 24" barrel and have that in a second upper. That can be your long range upper.

[FLshooter]

Bob,

You've also mentioned you want to get into reloading. that is another chunk of money, time and learning curve. This will be an interesting part of shooting and yes, you will be able to tune more accurate loads than factory for specific guns.

Both the Grendel and the AR15 are not suited for long range shooting. You won't see either at long range competitions save the occasional aficionado of this calibre. Just because the bullet can get there if you point it into the air does not mean you will be happy with the results, especially when you shoot alongside someone with a larger calibre bolt gun. Add to that the advice you are receiving about low cost scopes and my hat goes off to you for handicapping yourself to such an extent. The poster who claims to have multiple scopes and advocating price as a key criterion due to better resale value, and the ability of a cheap scope to be almost as good as a good scope belies the reality of long range shooting. Everything needs to be perfect to achieve such extreme goals. Having multiple guns and compromising quality to save dollars is one way of enjoying a shooting lifestyle, while having only one or two guns and being able to fit them out with the best possible equipment is another way. At 1,000yd you will get better results with the latter.

Getting back to your situation, a heavier gun absorbs more recoil than a stock AR15. It will help your shoulder but also reduce jump, which helps accuracy. If you can make that gun as heavy as possible and shoot from a rest with rear bag (not bipod) this will offset some of the other handicaps. One possibility is to attach a 3" wide metal plate weighing as much as possible to the underside of the handguard. Or make a lead saddle to sling over the top of the handguard to keep the gun from jumping. While the saddle is easier to take on and off the plate will also stop axial recoil, which is the anti-clockwise jerk you get from right-hand twist barrels. If you use a fixed stock it will ride the rear rest better. If you look at F-Class competition stocks the bottom of the stock at the back is parallel to the bore axis, so in recoil the barrel is still pointing at the target when the bullet exits the barrel.

One more thought, you mention Grendel vs. 223. Some F-Class Standard shooters shoot 1,000yds using 223. But to get there they need 30" barrels and load up to 50% above the SAAMI safe limit. So, an 80gn bullet pushing 2,950fps MV from a gun that weighs 8kg. If the rules allowed the gun to be heavier all shooters would pile it on. As the bullet slows down approaching the sound barrier it starts to wobble and become unstable. In 223, group sizes after 900yds start to blow out. Your slow Grendel from a slow 16" barrel is going to do the same. It is difficult not painting a doom and gloom picture of what is going to happen but if you are about to buy a long range scope then you will be wanting to turn the gun below it into something it is not...or get a better suited gun for what you want to achieve.

Another thought is to get a heavy profile 24" barrel and have that in a second upper. That can be your long range upper.

I shoot 600 yrds all the time with .223 I have a 24” bull Bartlien 1 in 7 twist.I use 82 g Berger and ARCOMP.I get around 2730 velocity.Groups well,depending on conditions.I wanted to try the 90 grain Sierra MK I use for my Valkyrie,but I wasn’t sure if it could handle it.
I had taken the .223 out to the farm and shot 850yrds w/it.It did well.At the time,I was working up a load w/77gn Sierra MK.Unfortunately,we lost that privilege,because the county is running a road through it.They declared eminent domain and owner had to sell.Now all I have is 600yrds at the gun club.
Anyway,I agree w/you.A 24” heavy bull barrel works well for ranges 600 yrds and up.I have a 22” Criterion 6.5 Hbar barrel.I shoot 600 w/it.But,can’t wait for my 24” heavy Bartlien custom to arrive.

[bob4432]

Quite a bit to ponder, I am glad I asked the question and I appreciate what everybody who participated has had to say. I thank you for sharing your knowledge. Off to ponder.....

[Msalm]

Just a thought, but just about any target rifle in the 10-12lb range (or more) in a bolt action with a GOOD muzzle brake will have virtually no recoil. Now if you also require a semi auto as bolt manipulation would be difficult with your shoulder issues I would understand....BUT for shooting at the distance your talking and not reloading (yet), I would seriously look at a good bolt action in 6.5 or even 6mm Creedmoor. Tons of quality factory ammo available and ideal performance for the distances you want to shoot...and really no appreciable recoil.

Just my thoughts.

[FLshooter]

Just a thought, but just about any target rifle in the 10-12lb range (or more) in a bolt action with a GOOD muzzle brake will have virtually no recoil. Now if you also require a semi auto as bolt manipulation would be difficult with your shoulder issues I would understand....BUT for shooting at the distance your talking and not reloading (yet), I would seriously look at a good bolt action in 6.5 or even 6mm Creedmoor. Tons of quality factory ammo available and ideal performance for the distances you want to shoot...and really no appreciable recoil.

Just my thoughts.

At the gun club I belong,muzzle devices are not allowed at the 600 yrd range when others are shooting.I have to remove mine if someone asks.
One of the reasons I love the 6.5 Grendel so much is because it is accurate at LR.And little recoil.I like that I can use it with or without muzzle break/comp.Especially with a long heavy barrel.

[bob4432]

Oh hell, anybody recommend a 6.5C forum that has a similar feel to this site, as in the willingness to assist like you have all done (which I greatly appreciate), possibly have a GREAT bulk buying section)
Also, due to the shoulder issues, for anybody that has both a 6.5G & 6.5C, about how much more felt recoil should I expect from say a 16" 6.5C vs 6.5G using the same weight bullet (understand that the 6.5C platform will weigh more out of the gate, and will probably go with a 20" due to the overall increase in $$ in just about everything, but at least i can do the research & know) & know when my skills are upto the task, 1000yds would not be a problem for the platform, especially the ~140gr+ bullets (at least that is what I have read, or using 123gr bullets should have a higher velocity especially if igo the 20" route (which may be the way to go due to the price in parts).
As I was looking around, it seems like A LOT more ammo selection (store bought of course) for the 6.5C compared to the 6.5G (or I just found more for some reason?)
May as well do the research...or build a 6.5G too since I have all parts less the SA adj gas block and optic (speaking of which, how due Athlon Optics compare as it seems you get a lot for your $$ but they do not have the history of many others I was considering, and the optic could go between both platforms.
Again thank you all for your input, it is greatly appreciated,
Bob

[FLshooter]

The 6.5 Creedmoor form.They have a lot of info on that site for bolt action and AR platforms.Ruger Precision Rifle And a lot about reloading.

[bob4432]

Thanks,
Bob

[Kswhitetails]

I’ve got and shoot both. My sons non threaded Howa mini recoils similarly to my bolt, but that’s not a fair comparison. I’d say the CM definitely has more inherent recoil - simple physics. However, as has been said, a good brake makes a world of difference.

A heavy barreled, weighty bolt with a brake won’t recoil anywhere near what a light weight AR will.

There are lots of ways to reduce felt recoil, but adding weight in the action and stock is the easiest and surest way to get that done.

The creed has much less recoil than a 308, and usually out performs it in terms of distant ballistics. The 6 creed edges out the 6.5 a smidge in both as well.

The Grendel will get you to 1000. In my opinion though, beyond 600, the challenges start to compound. Beyond 800, you’re into really challenging territory. For most of us though, we say bring it on. It’s not fun if it’s easy.

Keep your goals in mind. For 1k, Grendel stays fun and challenging. And after the learning curve is done, you’re still shooting instead of looking around asking “okay, now what?” I’m trying hard to gather for parts for my next bolt action, which will be a PRS style rig in 16 Grendel.

Impact 737R, Bartlein 16” m24, Grayboe Ridgeback, Timney CE 2s trigger, MPA 10 round PRC mags, Viper gen 2 4.5-27 EBRC2. Green cerakote.