IOR Valdada 4-28x56 40mm MX-7 SF

[MrSurgicalPrecision]

Hey guys, I'm looking to get a good scope for long range for my latest project, not a Grendel. I was wondering if anybody had by chance had some time with these Valdadas? I got to fondle one at a gun show last weekend and it seemed pretty impressive to me. I have hear some questions as to the ruggedness of Valdadas in general, and since this is going on a custom .338 Lapua I don't want something that's going to crap out on me. Anyone feel free to chime in here.

http://www.valdada.com/product/b1ebf901-d2ca-4f79-a1eb-ba56acc40aa9.aspx

[LRRPF52]

Mad Max,

While I like the profile and size of some of those IOR's, they are basically Eastern European products that have evolved from the Soviet times. Especially with .338 LM, I would steer away from IOR because of the durability issues that many long-range guys have encountered with them.

If you want all the features you could ask for, extreme durability, FFP, zero-stop, Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA reticle/clicks, excellent glass, SF, etc., I think you would be better off getting a NightForce 5.5-22x56, as in one of the newer FFP models with zero-stop for $800 less than that IOR. I'm not a NF cool-aid drinker, and currently don't have any, but for what you're doing, I would lean in that direction. Those scopes have a good reputation for taking a beating and producing repeatable tracking. Not many do.

LRRPF52

[MrSurgicalPrecision]

Thanks, I'm also looking at a USO but it's even more than the Valdada.

http://swfa.com/US-Optics-38-22x44-SN-3-35mm-Riflescope-P47399.aspx

[Drifter]

Perhaps not the exact models you're considering, but this review touches on most of the top names in scopes:

http://opticsthoughts.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81:high-end-tactical-scopes-part-ii&catid=4:rifle-scope-reviews&Itemid=4

[warped]

As we talked about earlier some of the decisions you have to make are the features you need, effectiveness and utility of the reticle, durability, ability to work with NVS or IR/Thermal (should you get any), MOA of travel, Zero Stop and reset, obviously glass clarity of course.

You might want to get to a show or see if you can find someone with each of the scopes you want to consider so that you can evaluate them by yourself without listening to others opinions (sometimes people have blind brand loyalty) The key here is whatever is going to suit your needs best regardless of how little or how much that might cost.

You will be looking at scopes that need to serve you out to 1600m, keep that in mind.

Look at the warranty and ease of using it.

[MrSurgicalPrecision]

As we talked about earlier some of the decisions you have to make are the features you need, effectiveness and utility of the reticle, durability, ability to work with NVS or IR/Thermal (should you get any), MOA of travel, Zero Stop and reset, obviously glass clarity of course.

You might want to get to a show or see if you can find someone with each of the scopes you want to consider so that you can evaluate them by yourself without listening to others opinions (sometimes people have blind brand loyalty) The key here is whatever is going to suit your needs best regardless of how little or how much that might cost.

You will be looking at scopes that need to serve you out to 1600m, keep that in mind.

Look at the warranty and ease of using it.

1600 meters? PFFFFT try 2800 yards.

The only scope of the group that I've actually got to "fondle" was the IOR Valdada. I was impressed with it's outward appearance, but that doesn't mean it's a great optic. My rifle will be up around 20 lbs and with an awesome WCI brake I doubt recoil will be much of an issue. I will really only use the rifle for banging steel and punching paper at extreme long ranges.

[mlmiller1]

I have the ior 3-18 valdada. It hasn't had a lot of abuse but so far it has worked perfectly for me. Tracks well, returns to zero. Only complaint is the eye relief range is fairly short. Ymmv.
MLM

[LRRPF52]

1600 meters? PFFFFT try 2800 yards.

The only scope of the group that I've actually got to "fondle" was the IOR Valdada. I was impressed with it's outward appearance, but that doesn't mean it's a great optic. My rifle will be up around 20 lbs and with an awesome WCI brake I doubt recoil will be much of an issue. I will really only use the rifle for banging steel and punching paper at extreme long ranges.

Mad Max,

I'm not sure what hot-rod you're having built, but I think 2800 yards is way out of .338 LM territory. I've been shooting .338 LM for about 5 years now, and once my friends got the Lapua radar data for the Scenars, they were able to start pushing to 2000 meters in favorable wind conditions...(little to no wind) with 2nd round hits being highly-celebrated. Some are even pushing 231gr solids at 3400 fps, but would still call 2800 yds way out of the effective range. If you're referring to the Brit Sniper that supposedly made those 2700+ shots, I think they were really talking about 2700ft, but 2700 yds just sounded cooler to the newspapers/reporters, so they went with it. Kinda like Andy McNab taking out over 200 Iraqis with his 8-man team in the 1st Gulf War...major propaganda (Bravo Two Zero).

There's no way anyone could even identify a human target at that distance with his S&B 5-25x56 PMII, let alone make 3 consecutive hits on two personnel, then a PKM receiver at 2700 yds. At 900m or 900 yards, that is actually quite fair game and totally doable with a .338 LM, but not 2700 yds/m.

Anyway, every .338 LM I have shot has been either topped with a Zeiss Diavari, Hensoldt, S&B PMII, USO SN-3, or NightForce, and all have usually had the magnification range in the 20+ area on the top end. I would stay away from the Zeiss due to durability issues, but they have the best glass. Hensoldt is their tactical line, so same great glass, same durability issues. S&B has all the features, but some issues with durability occasionally. NightForce seems to have the durability record to beat right now, although I do generally like the USO & S&B glass better, but each scope differs.

With your muzzle break, you'll still have the high G forces acting on your rifle, optic, and mounts, but the recoil impulse is just shortened so that you don't feel the whole push as the brake works, so you still need to think about durability with any rifle caliber really. If you're talking about stretching the legs of .338 LM, you'll need great glass, a tighter twist barrel for the longer bullets, and preferably a longer barrel to get the most out of your slow-burning powders. Those are the things I would recommend thinking about when dealing with .338 LM/glass/etc. It's a great cartridge.

There's a guy here in Utah up in Ogden who hot-rodded a whole line of cases and he claims to make a .338 parent case cartridge that pushes 300gr solids at 3400 fps. He basically blows out the case walls until they're straight, does an Ackley type shoulder/neck geometry, and uses longer barrels. He's doing something else for me right now, but I'm very peaked about that combo. He says it's good out to 2400 yards on Elk, and does a lot of custom long-range hunting rifles for people. Those are pretty hefty claims, so I will be looking into it some more.

LRRPF52

[sloan]

On the cheap end the rednecks up here use a 16x super sniper from swafa, to shoot on the power lines,I know it works way out jonder.....

[MrSurgicalPrecision]

Mad Max,

I'm not sure what hot-rod you're having built, but I think 2800 yards is way out of .338 LM territory. I've been shooting .338 LM for about 5 years now, and once my friends got the Lapua radar data for the Scenars, they were able to start pushing to 2000 meters in favorable wind conditions...(little to no wind) with 2nd round hits being highly-celebrated. Some are even pushing 231gr solids at 3400 fps, but would still call 2800 yds way out of the effective range. If you're referring to the Brit Sniper that supposedly made those 2700+ shots, I think they were really talking about 2700ft, but 2700 yds just sounded cooler to the newspapers/reporters, so they went with it. Kinda like Andy McNab taking out over 200 Iraqis with his 8-man team in the 1st Gulf War...major propaganda (Bravo Two Zero).

There's no way anyone could even identify a human target at that distance with his S&B 5-25x56 PMII, let alone make 3 consecutive hits on two personnel, then a PKM receiver at 2700 yds. At 900m or 900 yards, that is actually quite fair game and totally doable with a .338 LM, but not 2700 yds/m.

Anyway, every .338 LM I have shot has been either topped with a Zeiss Diavari, Hensoldt, S&B PMII, USO SN-3, or NightForce, and all have usually had the magnification range in the 20+ area on the top end. I would stay away from the Zeiss due to durability issues, but they have the best glass. Hensoldt is their tactical line, so same great glass, same durability issues. S&B has all the features, but some issues with durability occasionally. NightForce seems to have the durability record to beat right now, although I do generally like the USO & S&B glass better, but each scope differs.

With your muzzle break, you'll still have the high G forces acting on your rifle, optic, and mounts, but the recoil impulse is just shortened so that you don't feel the whole push as the brake works, so you still need to think about durability with any rifle caliber really. If you're talking about stretching the legs of .338 LM, you'll need great glass, a tighter twist barrel for the longer bullets, and preferably a longer barrel to get the most out of your slow-burning powders. Those are the things I would recommend thinking about when dealing with .338 LM/glass/etc. It's a great cartridge.

There's a guy here in Utah up in Ogden who hot-rodded a whole line of cases and he claims to make a .338 parent case cartridge that pushes 300gr solids at 3400 fps. He basically blows out the case walls until they're straight, does an Ackley type shoulder/neck geometry, and uses longer barrels. He's doing something else for me right now, but I'm very peaked about that combo. He says it's good out to 2400 yards on Elk, and does a lot of custom long-range hunting rifles for people. Those are pretty hefty claims, so I will be looking into it some more.

LRRPF52

I'm sure it would be a shot in the dark but I did watch a video from Desert Tactical Arms where they were shooting one of their 26" barreled at 2707 yards. The groupings were in the neighborhood of 10 feet but it was really windy too. I don't really expect to make any hits but I'm going to try it. In reality I might shoot a mile with it when the weather is perfect, I just think it would be fun to try shooting something 27 football fields away.

I'm building this on a Surgeon XL repeater action with a 30" 1-9" twist barrel and Manners rifle stock. All I have right now is the action, just waiting for the rest of the parts.

[warped]

I was talking about extremely tight groups, I guess it depends on how small your targets are.

Also remember that while a shot had been made at that distance, it was truly a lucky shot, IIRC the ammo was warmed inside his jacket, they were over pressure rounds and while it worked, he missed a few times first.

For shots on targets the size of a "melon" we need to remember the ability to detect that target and successfully engage it with a first shot.

Combine that with all environmentals and Coriolis and it is becomes a challenge for any of us.

What we need is a bbl with a left hand twist for work in the northern hemisphere and vice versa.

Here is what a friend of mine likes http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=312039

and of course these http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=467036

Gene, what is your opinion?

[MrSurgicalPrecision]

I was talking about extremely tight groups, I guess it depends on how small your targets are.

Also remember that while a shot had been made at that distance, it was truly a lucky shot, IIRC the ammo was warmed inside his jacket, they were over pressure rounds and while it worked, he missed a few times first.

For shots on targets the size of a "melon" we need to remember the ability to detect that target and successfully engage it with a first shot.

Combine that with all environmentals and Coriolis and it is becomes a challenge for any of us.

What we need is a bbl with a left hand twist for work in the northern hemisphere and vice versa.

Here is what a friend of mine likes http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=312039

and of course these http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=467036

Gene, what is your opinion?

I got a 1-9" twist barrel and I'm planning on shooting the 300 grain pills. I should be able to get them up to 2800-2900 fps with the 30" barrel, I'm hoping. I'm leaning pretty heavily toward the USO. I'm going to read some specs on it and see. I got to looking for some reviews on the Valdada and all I could find was people selling them. That's not a good sign.

[Jon A]

There is not much info about this scope as it seems very few people are using it. It might be fine but I wouldn't trust it to survive recoil as much as I'd trust other brands. I broke three of the 3-18 FFP IORs on my 300 RUM. They claim to have redesigned the internals on the newer scopes and the 3.5-18 on the RUM now is still ticking, knock on wood.

I'm sure the glass is fantastic but an unproven (in my mind at least) record of durability and a somewhat limited range of travel would keep it from being my first choice for this application (and I also prefer FFP).

Don't get me wrong, 85 MOA of travel is a fair amount and enough for most anything most people will do, but for the extreme range stuff you're talking about life will be easier with another choice that has more.

The NF 5.5-22 is a popular choice, very durable an lots of travel, reasonable price. Not the best glass and not available in FFP though. If you want FFP the Vortex Razor 5-20 is a good option. If you can afford it arguably the best choice is the 5-25 S&B, glass, FFP, travel, etc, it's hard to want more if you can afford it. The Premier 5-25 some like as much for most applications but it doesn't have as much travel so I'd lean toward the S&B for this application.

One scope people don't know much about yet but I predict will become THE go-to scope for many people and would do very well in this application, probably the most scope per dollar of any of the above choices is the upcoming SWFA Super Sniper 5-20X50 HD, which should become available later this month.

Internal build specs for durability at the highest level, glass as good or better than some of the above choices, FFP, 115 MOA of elevation travel and a price below $1500. My personal feeling is that unless you want to jump all the way to the S&B or Premier or Hensoldt you aren't going to improve on the SS 5-20X50HD even if you spend a lot more money. I'll probably own several in the near future.

[warped]

Hey for the price and actually considering how many people love the Vortex PST 6.5-20 you might want to check into it, as in everything else the product with the highest price is not always the best, considering how popular they are if you don't like it for this purpose you might want it for another rifle or you would be able to sell it easily.

Basically there is nothing to lose in evaluating one, they are built like a freaking tank.

[LR1955]

I was talking about extremely tight groups, I guess it depends on how small your targets are.

Also remember that while a shot had been made at that distance, it was truly a lucky shot, IIRC the ammo was warmed inside his jacket, they were over pressure rounds and while it worked, he missed a few times first.

For shots on targets the size of a "melon" we need to remember the ability to detect that target and successfully engage it with a first shot.

Combine that with all environmentals and Coriolis and it is becomes a challenge for any of us.

What we need is a bbl with a left hand twist for work in the northern hemisphere and vice versa.

Here is what a friend of mine likes http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=312039

and of course these http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=467036

Gene, what is your opinion?

Randy / MSP:

LRRPF52 has a significant amount of experience with the Lapua .338 at very long ranges and knows what works. I would also consider what Jon says very seriously too.

I probably wouldn't use conventional lead core bullets but would try some lathe turned bullets that use driving bands.

That said, he will need a 60 minute base and a optic that gives him at least 100 minutes of elevation -- and maybe even more but that is my rough estimate for 2700 yards in most environmental conditions.

Left hand twist to counter the coriolis effect? Not necessarily a myth but not worth the money either as zeros will need to be taken incrementally anyway and that and spin drift will simply be part of the zero. This is where recording zero's at known distances will become extremely important. I would keep a record of air temp, ammo temp, and altitude as a minimum. That is something I don't normally do but in this case it will probably be important later.

I foresee two major issues. First is seeing that far through mirage and dust and second is making a target board big enough and sturdy enough that it won't blow over in the winds.

It ought to be a challenge in terms of finding a optimal bullet design and then going through the zeroing process.

LR1955