Vortex Viper HS, HS(LR), HS-T or PST in FFP or SFP

[Tedward]

I am in the market now for my higher power scope. Looking at the Vortex Viper 4x16-44 or 6.5x24-50. I guess the first question is if the FFP and SFP just preference or does the FFP really help by keeping the hash-marks in the same field, not magnified I guess.

Also are the illuminated cross hairs used that much for the added cost of the PST. I'm looking at the PST and HS's in 6.5x24-50 but the HS-T is only offered in 4x16-44 and SFP. I don't want to spend that kind of money and be short changed with the max of 16 power. I don't have a 24 power to test/try out so wanting some input on the above question before pulling the trigger.

thanks!!

[LRRPF52]

If you are ever going to hunt around dusk or pre-dawn, the illuminated reticle might be something of necessity.

The size of the reticle will change along with the magnification in a Front Focal Plane optic, so that the measurements remain proportional to the magnification.

Example: 1 Mil @ 10x = 1 Mil @ 24X

With a Second Focal Plane reticle, the size of the reticle will remain constant, no matter what magnification you are on, and the angular measurements are often set at the max power of the scope.

Example: 4-16x44mm SFP MRAD scope, 1 Mil @ 16x = 1 Mil, 1 Mil @ 8x = 2 Mils.

FFP
Benefits: If you're using angular measurements to determine target size and range without a LRF, they are more convenient.
Cons: On max power, the crosshairs can often be bigger than most people would like, obscuring targets somewhat at longer ranges. Extra fine crosshairs are a major positive for me on an FFP scope.

SFP
Pros: Small crosshairs across the magnification range
Cons: Hard to range estimate with if not on set power where 1n = 1n

With the particular scopes you mentioned, the 4-16x44 will have a smaller FOV, but more elevation travel. The 6-24x50 has good FOV, but will need an MOA base for long-range shooting past 800yds usually, if that's a consideration for you.

[NugginFutz]

I have no experience with the HS line of Vortex scopes, but the PST has been very good to me.

I personally have the 6-24x50, SFP mRad scope. My long range needs are met with a 20MOA ADM base, and a good ballistics app in my iOS device. I shoot at varying elevations, so my drop charts aren't always spot on for conditions.

52's comments about reticles and FOV are spot on. I prefer a fine reticle at all magnifications and, since I generally use a LRF, the SFP mildots are generally more useful for establishing hold for second shots, should #1 go wide. If you can see your hit and don't change magnification after the shot, it's irrelevant if the dots are actually 1 mil apart.

Illuminated reticle? That depends on how much twilight shooting you do. My feeling is that it's better to have something you need on occasion, than to occasionally need something you don't have.

It all comes down to practicality. You might consider writing a "job description" for your new scope, and be honest with yourself when you do so. (Not many of us shoot 1000 yards in 30 below weather, at 15,000 feet, at dusk from a helicopter.) Be prepared to save many dollars, too. Each box a scope can check on your list of requirements adds to the cost.

[Tedward]

Thanks both of you. I don't plan on shooting over 500 yards but with the higher power I can zoom in and have a big target, that is my idea. I like doing that on targets so the real thing would be the same philosophy to me.
No Helicopter's but the dusk and dawn will be there and maybe even past dusk. Also as you said, have it and don't use it is better than wishing i did have it. I guess the 50mm also lets more light in than the 44mm is what I'm thinking too.

I guess the FFP and SFP is my biggest question now. Also the cross hairs, I don't think asking or ordering fine hairs is an option. I'll need to go back to the Vortex site and look at the video again.

The base I was thinking of using is the Vortex, JP or American Defense. 20 MOA is what I've read so was also thinking of that..

[bwaites]

I like the THOUGHT of First Focal Plane scopes, (FFP). The idea that you can use the mildots or hashes to accurately range at any magnification is wonderful. The problem is that far too few of them have fine enough crosshairs as you increase magnification. Even those that seem almost too fine at low magnification will grow so much they cover up a target at 600, 800, or 1000 yards. If it covers 1/2 of a 1" dot at 100 yards, it will cover the whole X Ring of an F Class target at 1000! I don't know anyone shooting competitions who uses FFP scopes. That doesn't mean they don't, but I haven't seen one. I see FFP scopes for sale by people all the time who think that they want one, but then decide that the crosshairs are obnoxious at high magnification. In fact, I know of a great IOR scope for sale right now for that very reason.

Second Focal Plane (SFP) scopes work better for fine adjustments at long range, but you must know what power to use when estimating range using their mildots or hashes.

I'll take my SFP scopes and a Laser range finder, thank you very much!

As for Illuminated reticles....All my scopes have them. I've used them infrequently, but when shooting at dusk or dawn, they can make a huge difference, especially if you are shooting into shadowed areas. I don't see them as necessary on a competition scope, because very few competitions take place in waning daylight, (Minus some of the sniper/tactical style or cross country matches). But for a hunting scope, it might mean the difference between a trophy or going home empty handed.

Nugginfutz is 100% right, make yourself a checklist, and realize that the fewer boxes you check, the less money you will spend.

Dollar for dollar, there is no real competition for Vortex, and when you factor in their customer service, no one else is on the same playing field.

I may have told this here before: We had a student at the Boomershoot Precision Rifle clinic who was packing up his rifle to travel to Boomershoot when he dropped it and tried to catch it. That rotated the rifle and it crashed down onto his shops concrete floor, landing on the scope and shattering the objective lens. He had invested thousands into his rifle, ammunition, and travel arrangements and was heartbroken, because Boomershoot without a scope is no Boomers and lots of shoot! The local shop where he bought the scope had no replacement, but urged him to call Vortex and see what they could do. Vortex told him they could ship a scope overnight to his hotel at Boomershoot, he'd have to mount and zero it there, but it would save the trip. He asked how much that would cost. They told him they would cover it under warrantee. He told them it wasn't a warrantee item, he dropped the scope, it wasn't theirs or the scopes fault. They told him again they would warrantee it. He said "thank you" and they made the arrangements. I told him if he ever bought a scope from another company he was an idiot!

[NugginFutz]

Thanks both of you. I don't plan on shooting over 500 yards but with the higher power I can zoom in and have a big target, that is my idea. I like doing that on targets so the real thing would be the same philosophy to me.
No Helicopter's but the dusk and dawn will be there and maybe even past dusk. Also as you said, have it and don't use it is better than wishing i did have it. I guess the 50mm also lets more light in than the 44mm is what I'm thinking too.

I guess the FFP and SFP is my biggest question now. Also the cross hairs, I don't think asking or ordering fine hairs is an option. I'll need to go back to the Vortex site and look at the video again.

The base I was thinking of using is the Vortex, JP or American Defense. 20 MOA is what I've read so was also thinking of that..

Ted,

A look down the tube is worth 100 hours of online research. If you can find a local shop or Sporting Goods store, go see with your own eyes. Side by side, if they're both available. I haven't ever gotten a really good feel for a reticle from a jpg on a website. I can say this, though - with the FFP reticles, they can get very, very fine when on low magnification. Conversely they can also get a little fat, when on high. I like the reticle to subtend only what I need to to be able to see, on higher magnification. The pDogs can hide very easily behind some of the reticles I've shot in other scopes. Deer and Elk won't make a difference but, as I said, it depends on application.

[bwaites]

Ted,

A look down the tube is worth 100 hours of online research. If you can find a local shop or Sporting Goods store, go see with your own eyes. Side by side, if they're both available. I haven't ever gotten a really good feel for a reticle from a jpg on a website. I can say this, though - with the FFP reticles, they can get very, very fine when on low magnification. Conversely they can also get a little fat, when on high. I like the reticle to subtend only what I need to to be able to see, on higher magnification. The pDogs can hide very easily behind some of the reticles I've shot in other scopes. Deer and Elk won't make a difference but, as I said, it depends on application.

+1!! Buying a scope off the internet is really a bit of a crapshoot. I really liked that IOR a friend has at 6 power, but by 15 or so, that crosshairs looked like railroad ties compared to what I was used to!

[NugginFutz]

+1!! Buying a scope off the internet is really a bit of a crapshoot. I really liked that IOR a friend has at 6 power, but by 15 or so, that crosshairs looked like railroad ties compared to what I was used to!

"Experience is what causes us to make new mistakes, instead of repeating old ones." ~ Unknown

You CAN buy wisdom. It's just expensive. ~ NF

[Tedward]

I live near Quantico Marine Base in VA, South of Wash. DC about 30 minutes (at 70mph). There is a HUGE Toys-R-Us for Hunters called Green Top down by Richmond. It's an hour and a half away but I'll give them a call to see what they have. Also a Bass Pro Shop 2 blocks away. Guess when you get one the other follows.

I'll start calling around to see what I can put my hands on and compare prices to the internet shops, but I do agree, holing it up to my eye will tell the story.

[lrgrendel]

I will add a couple of things.

I own a Vortex PST 6 x 24 x 50 FFP MRAD and am very pleased for all the reasons that are posted.

My eyes are not as good as they used to be so I bought a little higher power scope than maybe a younger fella would have bought. I can always dial down the power with mine but you can't dial up with a lesser power one.

I only occasionally take part in matches and again this was the reason I chose FFP, to be able to range at any power.

I shoot out to 1000 yds and the smallest target we have is a 10" steel plate. I have no problem in seeing it with the reticle.

Rather than looking at one in a store. It would be even better if you could shoot one. Just an idea!

As you know in or around $950 for the FFP. A couple hundred dollars cheaper for the SFP.

Hope this helps

[Sarge12486]

Green Top is indeed our Toys-R-Us ... love that place. Not sure if I saw Vortex optics there though.

[WHITEBULL]

Thinking the same way.

[QUOTE=lrgrendel;74803]I will add a couple of things.

I own a Vortex PST 6 x 24 x 50 FFP MRAD and am very pleased for all the reasons that are posted.

My eyes are not as good as they used to be so I bought a little higher power scope than maybe a younger fella would have bought. I can always dial down the power with mine but you can't dial up with a lesser power one.

I only occasionally take part in matches and again this was the reason I chose FFP, to be able to range at any power.

I shoot out to 1000 yds and the smallest target we have is a 10" steel plate. I have no problem in seeing it with the reticle.

Rather than looking at one in a store. It would be even better if you could shoot one. Just an idea!

As you know in or around $950 for the FFP. A couple hundred dollars cheaper for the SFP.

Hope this helps[/QUOTE

Unbelieveable! I am looking at the same scopes! I like the MRAD reticle, but will the 1 MOA reticle have a smaller cross hair at extended powers?
The Vortex HS 6-24X50 LR FFP has a XLR reticle, but my local Cabela's does not have one in stock to view.
Thanks

[Tedward]

Green Top is indeed our Toys-R-Us ... love that place. Not sure if I saw Vortex optics there though.

Glad to see a guy just down the road!! I was wondering if you guys exist.