Precision Firearms has PF 300AAC Ammo for sale with 220 Lapua Scenar-L

**BjornF16** · 03-08-2014, 10:09 PM

Any ballistic gel testing done with these?...I'm looking for a good self defense round for 300 BLK

**Tedward** · 03-08-2014, 11:51 PM

I have a 300 BO I just put together with a 16" barrel and carbine length gas system. Question is, when I shot 220gr with just the flash hider, it would not feed the next round and the case got stuck, hung up on the ejection. Is that because it is under pressured without a suppressor? Should it cycle lighter weight bullets? Just didn't have any to test so just wondering.

**PrecisionFirearms** · 03-09-2014, 12:37 AM

I have not done ballistic gelatin testing. We have done informal testing with our local sheriff's department. Shooting at 30 feet through a 1 layer of drywall and through a 2x4 and another layer of drywall at a oblique angle toward the ground. First layer of drywall was small 30 cal. hole, entered the wood at angle, passed through and existed the other layer of drywall leaving a nickel size hole. We dug up the bullets about 4 inches in the soft dirt, noses mushroomed and the dirt was torn up real badly with a 2 inch wide gouge leading to the hole in the ground.

For the 556, Winchester Softpoint 64 grain, LE issued loads, they penetrated the first layer with a small hole, went through the 2x4, exited the drywall leaving a 1/2 inch hole. All of the rounds ricocheted off the soft ground, leaving narrow gouge lines but no actually holes in the ground.

This LE department lost an officer during a shootout in which the criminal was shoot 6 times with Winchester 64 grain soft points from 10 inch barreled SIG Full Autos at about 50 yards. 4 through vitals. One Round in particular hit a rib, traveled around the rib and existed out the side. Even after being shot 6 times he managed to get a shot off and killed one of the Swat Team members just before he collapsed. During this shoot out, one officer's rifle jammed. Needless to say this Swat team lost faith with the SIG's (They jammed frequently during training too) and the 5.56 round. BTW: More than 30 shots were fired. Officers loose the steady too when fired on. This is Real World Defense on jacked up on drugs criminals, the type that do home invasions - not hunting deer.

This SWAT department wanted to get the 300AAC, but Ammo costs were too high. Instead they bought 20 rifles with 12 inch barrels from us. No jams or malfunctions to date with a combined 15,000+ rounds through them. With the old Sigs they could barely qualify at 100 yards on a 6 inch plate. Now with Precision Firearms rifles, they are hitting 1 inch targets at 100 yards. They are very happy with them. But a few still bought 300 AAC uppers to put on their PF patrol rifle lowers.

I have a 10 inch 300 AAC with a Titanium Suppressor in my house (among others). I am not trying to be sneaky and quiet as not be heard, I just don't want to fire a high pressure round off inside the house and blow my ear drums out and my family's. Has anyone here done that? I have. One cannot hear afterwards and in tactical situation, that can get you killed. With a 10 inch barrel, I am getting about 950 FPS with 220 grains. Bullet is highly unstable and will somersault. I also carry a FN 9mm each and every day. It shoots 1.5 inch groups at 25-30 feet in my hands. Some would say a 9mm is too small. From personal experience, when lead starts flying, I would rather have round count and not a big bore. Sometimes one needs to fire some rounds to make the intruder disoriented, it's called fire suppression. Then find cover from which you can surgically perform high speed lead poisoning.

I personally have taken over 550 deer. With Bow, Muzzle loader, and Rifle. Seen Deer run 200 yards when shot double lung at 10 feet with a 45 cal 210 grain bullet in a muzzle loader to being shot with 300 magnums at 500 yards. I have seen them drop on the spot with bow, and never had one run with a 204 Ruger in a AR. 204 Ruger because I knew shot placement was critical and never took shots past 200 yards. That rifle was a laser at that distance. Took them right through the neck. Lately I hunt with a 6.5 Grendel and have shot deer up to 700 yards with them laying over at 10 feet. They don't even act like they were hit - just stagger and then drop over. Most deer I have hunted run like crazy on close shots and just walk or stand still on long ones. I believe the noise of the rifle spooks them in a high adrenalin rush. My longest shot was with a 300 Magnum - ne of our 3-D rifles - Close to 1000 yards. The deer was laying with all four legs under it on the exact spot it was shot. Round went through the base of the neck high and broke the spine.

My Point - one never knows how another living being will react when shot. Hopefully we don't need to see it in our homes.

**PrecisionFirearms** · 03-09-2014, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by Tedward View Post

I have a 300 BO I just put together with a 16" barrel and carbine length gas system. Question is, when I shot 220gr with just the flash hider, it would not feed the next round and the case got stuck, hung up on the ejection. Is that because it is under pressured without a suppressor? Should it cycle lighter weight bullets? Just didn't have any to test so just wondering.

Subsonic rounds rarely work in a carbine unsuppressed rifle. Just not enough pressure for long enough.

Precision Firearms
Mark Hostetter

**BjornF16** · 03-09-2014, 12:47 AM

PF...thanks for the commentary. I'm currently running 110 gr Vmax in my suppressed 300 BLK...would you recommend the 220 subs instead?

**Tedward** · 03-09-2014, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by PrecisionFirearms View Post

Subsonic rounds rarely work in a carbine unsuppressed rifle. Just not enough pressure for long enough.

Precision Firearms
Mark Hostetter

Thanks Mark.

**PrecisionFirearms** · 03-09-2014, 03:15 AM

110 Vmax is a super sonic round - the 220 is not. A suppressed 300 AAC with subsonic loads is almost movie quiet. Loudest noise is the bolt cycling and the brass hitting the deck. You can clearly hear the pop of the projectile hitting the dirt. It is quieter than my 9mm pistol suppressed. But I would agree with "KLEM" on Ballistic Tips having more damage at higher velocities. But does it out weigh the advantage of suppressed? Trying to run the 110 Vmax at subsonic is also a bad idea. Not enough velocity to mushroom even the ballistic tip and the weight is too light to do it all by itself. The bullet is inherently stable too so no reliable tumble. That is where a heavy 220 grain does better. Slow and hard, and the long bullet is inherently unstable at that speed and it will tumble.

Clarification to second chapter I wrote above: Ballistic gelatin is about the only way to prove the point. For proper check, we would want the bullet to travel about 4 inches into the gelatin before starting the yaw and tumble. 4 inches of gelatin is about the same as the thickness of skin, some muscle, before entering vitals area. Hydraulic shock is caused by blood vessel in the brain popping from a massive energy release in the vitals, or obviously the brain, area. Death is almost instantaneous. Death from blood loss is not nearly as fast and there is the difference in large and heavy versus small and fast. Best is large and fast. But we all know that is almost never achieved realistically. 50 Beowulf or 458 SOCOM would achieve that with ear busting noise inside a house or room. Fine line that balance between fast and light versus slower and heavier, as Master Yoda would say it. But then pulse and beam lasers didn't have to worry about that.

Precision Firearms
Mark Hostetter

**BjornF16** · 03-09-2014, 03:22 AM

PF

I didn't mean to insinuate that I'm trying to shoot 110 VMax at subsonic velocity...LOL

I've shot both supersonic (Remington 125 Tipped; HSM 110 VMax) and subsonics (Remington 220 OTM) with my YHM suppressor...I get that.

What I was really getting at is: Do you believe the 220 subs are better than 110 VMax supersonics for home defense? (ballistically speaking only).

BTW, I'm not concerned with being "movie quiet". I use the suppressor to knock down the muzzle blast volume to acceptable indoor values. I could care less about the supersonic crack from the bullet. Of course, if an unstable 220 grain subsonic is more deadly than a supersonic (300 BLK supersonic that is) 110 VMax, then I'd rather use it...

Additionally, I'm running a Noveske 10.5" barrel.

**PrecisionFirearms** · 03-09-2014, 03:22 AM

+1 KLEM

It will with the proper powder - its all about dwell time there. Use Win 296 or H110 - same powder exactly just different labels. Magpul mags seem to work better than most for those heavy bullets. I have seen some very rough chambers in some barrels (wont mention who's

and that can cause extraction issues too. Anything even thinks about hiccupping and the subsonic loads in a carbine 16 inch wont cycle. Gas port needs to be very large too (cant publicly state on forum because of ITAR). Pistol gas is definitely the way to go. Noveske used to offer carbine and Pistol, now they only offer pistol.

Mark Hostetter
Precision Firearms

**PrecisionFirearms** · 03-09-2014, 03:28 AM

Alright Klem - Not movie quiet- but then I like my sound cranked out of 7 Bose Speakers. Maybe my volume is turn to the right too high of comparison. What suppressor are you using? I am using a YHM Titanium suppressor. We were just firing this rifle this week and it is impressively quiet and our test fire range is inside.

**BjornF16** · 03-09-2014, 03:32 AM

I wish I had bought the YHM Ti version...my 300 BLK is front heavy with the SS suppressor.

I think we've stepped on each other...see my post #13

**PrecisionFirearms** · 03-09-2014, 03:36 AM

Ballistically speaking - it is a toss up. Depends on what you want. Inside the house for home invasion, or from the home during a Zombie attack or Preppers nightmare. Are you worried about ricochet? I probably would vote neither. Have had a lot of issues feeding the VMAX reliably. I prefer the 110 grain black Tipped pills made by barnes when you can get them. Recovered one from a deer shot at 80 yards. That pill blossomed into a prefect day lily and lodged into the opposite chest wall. No Exist wound and did it job perfectly.

**BjornF16** · 03-09-2014, 03:39 AM

I've wondered about the 110 Barnes...

More concerned about inside the house for home invasion than Zombie attack or the preppers nightmare right now. I have other tools for those.

What barrel length are you running with the YHM Ti suppressor?

**mongoosesnipe** · 03-09-2014, 03:50 AM

movie quiet is relative to what movie you are watching, with a good can you can get the black out/whisper quiet enough to become aggravated with the amount of noise that is made be the action of an ar15 cycling, as for subsonic bullet expansion that is an easy problem to solve and it deos not require any futuretec bullets the answer old tec

fired subsonic into wet news print

Precision Firearms has PF 300AAC Ammo for sale with 220 Lapua Scenar-L

Precision Firearms has PF 300AAC Ammo for sale with 220 Lapua Scenar-L

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