6.5 Grendel - state of decline?

[lazyengineer]

Of late, it seems like interest in this round has pretty much fallen off a cliff. Almost no traffic in this forum anymore. I have a Grendel upper I'm looking to sell, and so checked GunBroker prices and my jaw pretty much hit the deck. Uppers now selling for $100 list closing price, and complete build kits for a little over $200 now in auction. Anyone asking for more doesn't even get an offer. I don't have a great feeling on selling off my own 20" Alexander HBar upper right now!

It's been a rough run. The elimination of the Wolf Steel took away the 27 cent ammo - which was a very substantial hit actually. I think that was Bill Alexander's biggest genius stroke, was securing that supply chain for cheap Grendel ammo, and with that, it put that round on the map. With that gone, the round is struggling - bigly. Combined with the 6mmARC is now the new hotness many have moved to for the better target shooting behavior. Finally the SFAR. Why am I selling my 20" Grendel upper? Because it just got made pointless with my 20" 6.5Creedmoor SFAR, which has the same size receiver set, an HBAR(ish) barrel, and overall is actually a smaller and lighter gun than my 20" Grendel - of all things. (SFAR is a game-changer - IMHO)

I still like and will run my SBR'd 6.5 Grendels. A 12" and 14.5" are pretty great. But I'm beginning to suspect the future of Grendel isn't going to be on a growth trajectory; now that Wolf Steel is gone and the SFAR 6.5 Creedmoor is here.

Thoughts?

[mtnlvr]

Site traffic seemed to take a hit when the website was more or less down for ~ a month. Then the latest update hit and it's not as user friendly. One thing that helped me was figuring out the right combo of options in the advanced search to only display threads with new post since my last visit. I wish they'd make an easy button for that.

I still have faith that the horde is out there, just as sleepers that will one day rise again!

[Klem]

Lazy,

The Forum is a clumsy measure of the calibre's popularity. It still retains a niche between .223 and 308 in the AR15 platform. I like it because it is mild recoiling and maximises the potential of the AR15 platform. it would be great if barrel extensions were machined specifically for the fatter case, but apart from that and maybe average-quality mags it's a good round - if you are conservative with your loads.

Your SFAR is interesting but still intended to be a heavier recoiling rifle. I suppose you could hand-load lighter rounds with lighter loads if you wanted something slightly more than Grendel, but less than a 308. Even better if you can pull it apart and replace the barrel and trigger.

[VASCAR2]

I’m seeing a decline in post or general usage on other firearms forums. I believe Facebook and maybe Reddit are getting some of the attention where previously there were mainly online forums. If we took a poll I feel sure a high percentage of users are older. We’ve lost several active users to age and illness. Posting on firearms forum tend to fluctuate with the weather and general activity is at its lowest in the summer months.

If Palmetto State Armory starts production of the Brass and steel cased 6.5 Grendel ammunition this might draw some more attention back to the 6.5 Grendel. PSA/AAC ammo recently started releasing 7.62x39 ammo and supposedly 6.5 Grendel ammunition is on the production schedule. The economy has an overall effect on disposable income which goes hand in hand with sales. The current inflation and increases in prices in all sectors of the economy is currently very noticeable and impacts firearms related sales.

[grayfox]

I also think the prime factor is the lousy biden-economy. Bidenomics is a disease, like cancer. Folks everywhere are struggling with all the high prices, and that trajectory is not over yet unfortunately. Once inflation starts up, it runs a long while spreading throughout the whole economy... especially since TraitorJoe attacked energy - energy goes into EVERYTHING we do, buy, drive or use.
Far as I can recall the 65creedmoor forum has been slow for quite a while, but those shooting it (including me) have not lost any interest.
A couple of cartridges I have are slowly receding into the safe, but I just swapped in a new 18" Grr barrel, will probably replace my Hamr in the lineup. Nothing to write about it... so forum traffic won't jump up just 'cause I have a new pipe. The "For sale" arena is also slow, again, because of the economy.

[LRRPF52]

The torque and recoil of lightweight .308s and 6.5 Creedmoors don’t allow you to maintain sight picture when breaking the shot. Even my 14lb AR-10s don’t allow a nice sight picture management, so it’s much harder to spot your own impacts. The sight picture yanks hard to the left just long enough to where you don’t see your impact relative to the point of aim, so you mainly rely on someone else to spot for you.

Then there’s the issue with brass life. In my .260 Rem gasser, I lose my expensive brass after 3 firings. Primer pockets are toast. Performance is nice, but difficult to justify the weight, recoil, and sight picture penalties when it costs that much more to shoot.

These are the main reasons why I don’t shoot my .308s, .260 Rem, or 6.5CM gassers. I’ve owned 7 AR-10s over the past 22 years, have done a lot of work with them. I was probably one of the biggest AR-10 fans out there, then 6.5 Grendel ruined them for me basically.

Ruger is having a lot of issues with the SFARs, which are a knock-off of the POF Rogue. It’s great for lightweight, but you will have the same issues but worse with sight picture and brass life.

With Grendel, you have 124 factory loads that are designed to work in the AR-15.

With .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor, a lot of the ammo does not play well with gas-operated systems because unlike 7.62x51, there isn’t a dual spec for chamber and port pressures at exact locations.

Then there’s the AR-15 commonality of parts benefit to 6.5 Grendel.

A lot of people who have believe what they see online without having ever shot 6.5 Grendel next to a 6mm take that info and run with it because of the new must be better logical fallacy.

It turns out that the 100-110gr class of bullets in 6.5 Grendel can be drive faster than 6mm AR or ARC, and trajectories and wind deflection overlap in reality. We’ve just been comparing 123gr Grendel mostly against 105-108gr 6mm.

That new 100gr ELD-VT flies really nice out to 1000yds for me, and when I compared my real-world results with Hornady’s doppler data for the 6mms, there doesn’t seem to be a benefit, which means we’re looking at another set of questions about BCs.

If you shoot that 100gr ELD-VT or 105gr Sierra, you have almost indistinguishable performance between the 2. If you handed me 2 rifles chambered in each, that looked externally identical, I would not be able to see the difference downrange at 1000yds. This is why I halted my plans to build a 6mm AR.

[Double Naught Spy]

Thoughts?

3 forums I folllow have had significant reductions in traffic. Two have been since covid and the third has just been slowly falling off all along. As Klem noted, the forum is a poor reflection of the platform/caliber. Hog hunting is still very popular, but I have seen several hog hunting forums fail or become virtually dormant over the years.

Also keep in mind that a lot of folks live and die by Facebook. I think I am a member of 2 Grendel FB groups, for example. I don't care for Facebook, but I am on it as well. However, when I went to work for RIX optics, of the 9 prostaffers we had who were supposed to be producing content for social media, 2/3 of them only posted to FB groups. Only 3 of us were posting to YouTube. This isn't the same as a forum, I understand, but those folks aren't posting to forums or not posting very much, not per their bios I read. FB is their world.

Vascar mentioned Reddit. There are Reddit and Quorum on which I participate as well. I have seen Grendel threads on each and maybe that it getting people the feedback and interaction that they want, but I found the information to be scintillating, not as in fascinating, but as in no clear image or direction, no cohesiveness to the posts or the responders.

I didn't start to use Grendel because it was popular (it wasn't), but because it was good. If popularity was the issue, I would have gone with 6.8. When I got into Grendel, my of my counterparts were using 6.8. Only one was using Grendel.

[StoneHendge]

Lazy, a little OT - what is the weight of the SFAR's BCG and is the slam on return to battery more comparable to an AR-15 or an AR-10? (I'm assuming the SFAR might have a stronger spring to strip and move a larger round with a smaller BCG?).

The biggest problem I find staying on target with my 6.5CM AR-10 is not from recoil, but from return battery since the BCG cycle starts after the bullet exits the barrel and the bullet is well on its way to the target when the carrier is slamming the next round into the chamber. My full mass AR-10 carrier is almost 19 oz while my liteweight AR-15 carrier is less than 9. About 600 yards is the threshold where I can start to see the bullet impacting dirt on misses with the CM, which is about 3/4 second of flight time.

[lazyengineer]

Lazy, a little OT - what is the weight of the SFAR's BCG and is the slam on return to battery more comparable to an AR-15 or an AR-10? (I'm assuming the SFAR might have a stronger spring to strip and move a larger round with a smaller BCG?).

The biggest problem I find staying on target with my 6.5CM AR-10 is not from recoil, but from return battery since the BCG cycle starts after the bullet exits the barrel and the bullet is well on its way to the target when the carrier is slamming the next round into the chamber. My full mass AR-10 carrier is almost 19 oz while my liteweight AR-15 carrier is less than 9. About 600 yards is the threshold where I can start to see the bullet impacting dirt on misses with the CM, which is about 3/4 second of flight time.

Savvy question. The SFAR BCG is the exact weight and dimensions of an AR15 BCG, and as you note, that reduced weight has a profound impact on the 6.5 creedmoor recoil behavior. It's actually quite mild - much moreso than much heavier typical AR10'.

it runs a standard carbine buffer (and weight), but with a slightly bigger spring, and in a slightly longer buffer tube - akin to A5. The longer buffer tube is needed for the longer stroke clearance need of the longer round - and the heavier longer spring is likely as you note, to have more power to assuredly stip out the bigger Creedmoor round.

honestly, the SFAR is a game-changer.

that said, I personally still like Grendel and intend to keep running it. Particularly in SBR class guns. And my dream-gun is still an RDB bullpup in 6.5 Grendel - though perhaps with this new super-strong high Nickle Alloy (that Ruger is proving out via the SFAR) imagine what you could do with a 62,000 psi rated 17" 6.5 Grendel, while smaller than a 10.5 MK18.

Edit - I forgot I had actually uploaded this picture already: here is an SFAR and a standard AR15 Grendel BCG. they weigh the exact same, so just divide that Lb and oz weight number by 2, for the weight of each.

[StoneHendge]

Thanks Lazy! Seems that most of the initial problems out there were some of the QC issues that seem to be endemic to the industry these days. And with guys feeding them cheap M80 ball. It should be interesting to see if a barrel aftermarket develops. The thought of running mild 6 CM loads is quite intriguing for practical gasser matches. Running a 105 below 3k would actually have less recoil than running a 123 at 2600 in a Grendel.

[lazyengineer]

Thanks Lazy! Seems that most of the initial problems out there were some of the QC issues that seem to be endemic to the industry these days. And with guys feeding them cheap M80 ball. It should be interesting to see if a barrel aftermarket develops. The thought of running mild 6 CM loads is quite intriguing for practical gasser matches. Running a 105 below 3k would actually have less recoil than running a 123 at 2600 in a Grendel.

In my experience, I find my heavier 20" 6.5 Grendel with a 123 gr bullet and standard FH, to be MORE jumpy than my SFAR (with a break) running a light weight bullet like a 107 in 6.5 Creedmoor. I appreciate that AR10s's are historically jumpy bastards - but I've learned much of that is due to the massive F150 sized BCG's slamming back and forth. Run an AR15 weight BCG (i.e. an SFAR in 6.5 CM), and that tempers by a lot. Perhaps the 4 - position carbon-lock resistant gas block of the SFAR is a factor as well.

[LRRPF52]

The first time I saw a Ruger SFAR was right after it came out, and it was a customer return at Scheel’s.

Seems like the 6.5 Creedmoors have the most issues, but there have been a lot of gas system and blown primer issues, accuracy, reliability, and bore defects.

One observation from a lot of guys who have disassembled them is that the gas settings are either too small or too large, without a mid-range setting.

Hop was able to finally tame it with the RifleSpeed gas block with its 12 settings, so my initial impression was that these are basically a donor action if it doesn’t run for you and shoot out of the gate.

The 20” guns seem to be more reliable than the 16” guns.

But the big problem with lightweight .308s and 6.5 Creedmoors managing sight picture is torque, not necessarily recoil.

If you watch a large frame even, the rifle torques a lot as soon as the shot breaks, which yanks the optic to the left (RH rifling twist causes left hand torque).

When you go down to a smaller frame, lightweight gun in .308 and 6.5CM or 7mm-08 etc., the torque effect gets even worse.

I have a Savage MSR-10 small frame .308, for example. It’s more like the Colt 901 or DPMS GII.

[grayfox]

I built an AR-10 a while ago, with 308 and a 65 Creed upper. The 308 worked ok, tore up the brass a lot. The Creed really slammed ammo around, lots of brass flow into the firing pinhole, MV's were too fast for the barrel length. Both uppers were very recoil-heavy. Bottom line, I backed out of all of the -10 stuff.
I do see the SFAR talk here, and for a minute was mildly interested, but in general I will stick with bolt actions on that level of caliber, they shoot well and I have loads for them. In the meantime I found a Rainier 18" Grendel barrel that I'm in process of working up, and it's fun, a little lighter than my lilja, ~4 oz, but comes up faster and seems a bit easier to maneuver, MV's are working good too. So really don't have a need for an sfar level rifle or anything.
Since it seems to work for you, that's good. But I don't have any plan to do it...
The Gr, 6Arc and my bolt actions have me covered.

[WSAR15]

My world ends at 300 - 400yds. The 6.5 Grendel is a great round and which I have substituted for the 308 (also a great round) but can run a much ligher AR15 platforms. Not and inexpensive round!
I also have a 6.5 Grendel 21" Ruger American Glass Bedded in laminate stock (Boyds At-One Thumb Hole - Nutmeg).
I like the 90gr Federal - American Eagle JHP but hard to find - any recommendations for handloading or substitues?

[lazyengineer]

My world ends at 300 - 400yds. The 6.5 Grendel is a great round and which I have substituted for the 308 (also a great round) but can run a much ligher AR15 platforms. Not and inexpensive round!
I also have a 6.5 Grendel 21" Ruger American Glass Bedded in laminate stock (Boyds At-One Thumb Hole - Nutmeg).
I like the 90gr Federal - American Eagle JHP but hard to find - any recommendations for handloading or substitues?

TnT 90s are at Midway. Great bullet. Very forgiving and shoot great in almost any load.