Florida has started Confication..Good!

[stanc]

There is no shortage, Stan, of people who will stand toe to toe with you or anyone else who says different, and state unequivocally that there are, indeed, documents written by God.

Are you saying there is a document -- proven to have been written by God -- in which he lists the rights that the Founders claim he gave us? Link please.

[montana]

Tom, I do not think you have ever been intentionally disrespectful, but in post #41, I asked you six direct questions, four of which required a simple "Yes" or "No" answer. You answered only the very first question, and ignored the rest.

I wasn't ignoring them as much as we have discussed these topic numerous time before.

With what do you disagree?

Does the Second Amendment state that it is meant to counter government power?

More of a balance of power, but yes, it was meant to counter an out of control government if our "free state" was in jeopardy.

Does the Second Amendment note any purpose for militias other than state security?

We discussed this one before. We discussed and disagreed with the meaning, "security of a free state".

Doesn't the Constitution provide for calling out the militia to suppress insurrections?

Under a legal Constitutional government -yes.

Does either the Constitution or the Second Amendment say anything about using the militia to conduct insurrections?

Insurrection against a lawful Constitutional government-NO. Giving the people the means to arm themselves against a government which violates the very fundementals of freedom written in the Bill of Rights and is a threat to a "free state", a resounding- YES

If the Second Amendment was not meant to ensure that military small arms would be available to members of organized State militias, why does it have the militia clause?

We had different opinions on this subject too. I believe it was meant for all people who are in both the organized and un-organized militia. You have stated it was only for the organized state militias.

We have debated all of these topics before Stan and I didn't see a need to continue. Like I stated before, we can agree to disagree, with all respect retained .

[JASmith]

There is only one thing more frustrating than a conservative Christian debating an atheist is a debate between an atheist and an ultra-orthodox member of any religion.

The debate only serves to strengthen each others' position rather than reach a middle ground.

The only real value to the debate is that each party reinforces his own position and may actually help others with similar beliefs understand the issues a bit better.

It is the rare individual who develops a better understanding of the others' views.

That is why I object to threads like this one being allowed to continue past 50 posts. Nothing new is developed, folks only get deeper entrenched, and the garbage pile gets deeper.

[stanc]

If the Second Amendment was not meant to ensure that military small arms would be available to members of organized State militias, why does it have the militia clause?

We had different opinions on this subject too. I believe it was meant for all people who are in both the organized and un-organized militia. You have stated it was only for the organized state militias.

Well, since the unorganized militia is not "well regulated" and its members are not required to own military weapons, yes, the wording of the militia clause seems intended solely to ensure arms are available to members of the organized State militias.

However, ensuring the availability of arms to organized militia members also makes them available to the unorganized militia (which, in the 1790s, was only able-bodied, military-age, free white men, not all of "the people.")

Thanks for responding to my earlier questions. Although I have quibbles with a few of your other answers, I'm going to let them drop.

[Drift]

^^ what he said. I have my opinions based on my life expierence. I try to keep an open mind and learn new things. But the massive inerita from decades of data and antidotal expierence do restrict (It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks) Good news though, its posible. Last week after 50 years I changed my mind about my religon. Last month I changed my opinion on defending others. Not gonna go there, it would be ... off topic. I did those thngs because the arguments against my position were valid and overwhelming But again, what Mr. JASmith says is true. If all you are doing is stating your position and not trying to learn from anothers position, you are really wasting your time and not valadatin your argument.

[stanc]

There is only one thing more frustrating than a conservative Christian debating an atheist is a debate between an atheist and an ultra-orthodox member of any religion.

If by "atheist" you're referring to me, I'm not the least bit interested in debating Christians. I just have two questions regarding the claim for the existence of God given rights:

1. Has God listed all of the rights he has given us, and if so, where?
2. If there is no such list, who determines what are God given rights, and by what method/criteria is it determined what are/are not rights given by God?

[NugginFutz]

Are you saying there is a document -- proven to have been written by God -- in which he lists the rights that the Founders claim he gave us? Link please.

Please, Stan. Let us not mince words.

You apparently want a personalized copy of a document penned by the finger of God, himself. To that, I say "you aren't alone". Do I believe He will ever deliver one to you? I don't know.

Do I personally believe that there is a book that is the God Breathed word of God, Himself? Yes. I have several copies, in multiple languages and translations.

You want proof in a physical form, custom made to your desires, whereas the founders and framers crafted the constitution based on their faith.

Faith is key to concept of God given rights, and determines how the validity or value of God’s inspired Word is received or perceived because “People who do not have God’s Spirit do not accept the things that come from his Spirit. They think these things are foolish. They cannot understand them, because they can only be understood with the Spirit’s help." ~ 1 Corinthians 2:14.

I know you aren't interested in debate. I don't offer one. I just want thank you for reading what I have to say.

[bwaites]

And we now spend pages debating how and what we are debating...useless, and done.

[bwaites]

Closed