Chris Kyle dead.

[bwaites]

I have also seen the studies that show that eating salad daily, and daily exercise have the equivalent positive effects on combating depression and common mental illnesses, without the side effects. The common side effects of switching or going off the meds are in fact, homicidal and suicidal thoughts, among others. We've become a society of pill-popping and push-button solutions, rather than logical approaches that were part of every-day life before the post-industrial fantasy-land era we live in.

Actually, the common result of severe depression, PTSD, and anxiety is/are suicidal/homicidal thoughts. Its why the first question we ask as medical providers is whether they feel that way! Untreated severe depression almost always leads to suicide, unless the person enters a vegetative state, which I've seen in State Institutions. I certainly don't disagree that Americans want an answer "right now" and that other approaches may help. However, I doubt that a healthy diet and exercise would have helped this Marine. The vast majority of Marines I've met (and SF guys) are exercising pretty vigorously, and that doesn't seem to protect them.

I also have a major problem with the theories behind the administration of psychotropic medications, since they follow the established school of thought that the brain can be manipulated with chemistry "balance", when the most recent studies with advanced Electroenecphalography indicate a completely different nature to the organ, that should have made radical shifts in the neurosciences towards electroneurophysiology, but did not.

The brain is easily manipulated with chemistry, as any high schooler smoking dope or drinking alcohol can attest! The practice of medicine is still a balance between art and science. We'd love to find a "cookbook" that worked in every situation, but it isn't going to happen in our lifetimes.

The University of Michigan has been at the forefront of this research, using real-time 3D imaging of brain electrical function, and were able to to see a phenomenon occurring between the synapses that takes electro-chemical connector theory in a totally different direction, but that hasn't been pursued. I read about it in The Scientific American while in Europe, and have followed-up with the UoM, but can't get the article. Basically, it concluded that over 92% of what happens between the synapses is an energy that doesn't register with any of the standard instrumentation that would register on the electromagnetic spectrum, but its effects can clearly be seen in real-time.

It should have launched a new era in neuroscience, because its implications have vast considerations to be studied and processed for decades to come. The reality is that professionals within the neuroscience community haven't even heard of it, at least none of the ones I have asked. It should have been breaking news of the century for every brain surgeon, psychiatrist, psychologist, and neurological researcher.

Forgive me for not trusting the "double-blind" studies issued by Merck. After what I've seen in that industry, I would go outside to check if they told me the sky was blue.

You don't have to trust them. But using Youtube videos to demonstrate your point is hardly confidence inspiring when it comes to what you do trust.

The truth is that we are barely scratching the surface in mental health. But for every patient with some horrible side effect, I can produce 2 from my own practice that will tell you how much better their life is because of modern medicines and their use.

The learning curve is steep. Discounting some of the steps on that curve doesn't help the people who need them.

[LRRPF52]

If recent research indicated that the theories for prescribing psychotropic medication have no scientific basis, I can think of between 35 and 55 billion reasons why the research would never see the light of day.



If anyone really thinks suppression of academic research doesn't happen, I invite you into one of my other hobbies...Meso-American History and Archeology. That field is jam-packed with exclusion of volumes of evidence that is quite frankly, criminal. These topics are probably best for another forum though.

I just want to re-iterate that Chris Kyle and other vets have continued their lives of service by offering help and positive avenues to channel many of the feelings and symptoms vets experience once they return to civilian life. I doubt they even knew the alleged perpetrator had just been recently released from a mental facility, or had his SSRI's switched, or was even on SSRI's. Being a man of trust, I think Chris just wanted to help a fellow veteran, and he died in the process.

[bwaites]

Hmmmm.....Merck might not be your best choice for antidepressants. I can't think of a single Merck antidepressant that is even in their top 20 drugs, maybe more.

Elavil (Amitryptyline) was theirs, but has been generic for more than 15 years, and most Elavil is mostly used for sleep disorders at this point.

Remeron was Schering Plough, but its also generic.

BUT....we've beat the horse enough.

I certainly agree regarding Chris and his efforts to help other veterans. GREAT guy by all accounts and one who will be missed.

[BjornF16]

I find it interesting that so many of you are willing to blame the medication, just like anti-gun people are willing to blame the gun!

The reason he was on the medication is BECAUSE he had a serious mental illness. Blaming the medication for acting out is EXACTLY akin to blaming a gun for shooting.

How many of you have spent any time at a mental health facility where people refuse their medications? How many of you have spent any time at a prison, where 50% of the people incarcerated have some type of mental illness and were NOT taking any medication when they commintted their criminal acts? I'm at a juvenile detention facility weekly. 60-70% of these kids are victims of documented abuse and have PTSD, Depression, Anxiety, Schizophrenia, or BiPolar disease. NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS ON TREATMENT MEDICATION WHEN THEY COMMITTED THEIR FELONIES! NOT ONE!

Its a sad day when supposedly educated people refuse to acknowledge that double blind studies, the only way a medication can be tested scientifically, are valid.

These arguments against medication are EXACTLY the same arguments that anti-gunners use against guns! How can you not see the illogical progression you are following? As I have stated before, CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION!

Our mental health system sucks, but it isn't because of the medication, guys! Its because we have far too few providers for the number of people needing help! That's why a Navy Seal and his buddy were trying to help out a Marine diagnosed with mental illness, because there simply weren't enough conventional resources to help. I seriously doubt that Chris Kyle or Chad Littlefield had ANY training in dealing with an individual with severe PTSD, and yet, being the good guys they were, they tried.

But blaming the medication he was taking is akin to blaming the rifle he used.

Bill, I just can't accept the analogy or your 100% confidence in meds.

My brother had a break down while enrolled in Rice University in the late 60's. He was in Navy ROTC. Everything seemed normal, and then a break down within days of a ROTC "party". There was a suspicion that he was a casualty of the CIAs LSD program (MKUltra). I haven't found any evidence it was conducted at Rice University or not...

I do know that on some of the meds, he was fine. On some meds, he was an absolute menace.

I'm sure you don't intend to omit, but not everyone reacts the same to all of the meds. Some people will have adverse side effects to include undesired behaviors and/or a lack of ability to process right from wrong.

I'm not suggesting that all meds are EVIL...I get that some people need to be on meds. But I firmly believe that our society is over medicated and over vaccinated.

I agree our mental health system is broke...I'll thank the ACLU for that one (patients rights). Sure, reform was needed but we ended up with no mental health institutions to speak of when we really needed to fix the abuses.

You can't ignore that the overwhelming majority of "mass murder" shootings were perpetrated teenagers or young adults who were on psychotropic meds...that has to be a huge RED FLAG.

I'm with LRRPF52...I don't fully trust the "double blind" studies. I've done Operations Research...data can be manipulated.

[LR1955]

Bill, I just can't accept the analogy or your 100% confidence in meds.

My brother had a break down while enrolled in Rice University in the late 60's. He was in Navy ROTC. Everything seemed normal, and then a break down within days of a ROTC "party". There was a suspicion that he was a casualty of the CIAs LSD program (MKUltra). I haven't found any evidence it was conducted at Rice University or not...

I do know that on some of the meds, he was fine. On some meds, he was an absolute menace.

I'm sure you don't intend to omit, but not everyone reacts the same to all of the meds. Some people will have adverse side effects to include undesired behaviors and/or a lack of ability to process right from wrong.

I'm not suggesting that all meds are EVIL...I get that some people need to be on meds. But I firmly believe that our society is over medicated and over vaccinated.

I agree our mental health system is broke...I'll thank the ACLU for that one (patients rights). Sure, reform was needed but we ended up with no mental health institutions to speak of when we really needed to fix the abuses.

You can't ignore that the overwhelming majority of "mass murder" shootings were perpetrated teenagers or young adults who were on psychotropic meds...that has to be a huge RED FLAG.

I'm with LRRPF52...I don't fully trust the "double blind" studies. I've done Operations Research...data can be manipulated.

Bjorn:

That's why there are Peer Reviews. Your Operations Research studies for example. Were they peer reviewed by a board that existed outside of your organization and whose sole purpose was to see if you were manipulating your data? I guarantee you that if you tried to manipulate samples, data, or statistics, it would be called out very quickly.

My bet with this whole nasty situation is the murderer was screwed up well before he went into the Marines. I would like to see some demographics on the guy.

LR1955

[BjornF16]

Bjorn:

That's why there are Peer Reviews. Your Operations Research studies for example. Were they peer reviewed by a board that existed outside of your organization and whose sole purpose was to see if you were manipulating your data? I guarantee you that if you tried to manipulate samples, data, or statistics, it would be called out very quickly.

My bet with this whole nasty situation is the murderer was screwed up well before he went into the Marines. I would like to see some demographics on the guy.

LR1955

I get the whole "peer review" thing....just like global warming report peer reviews. They aren't bullet proof.

My main point is some people obviously have bad reactions to some meds and/or vaccinations. Otherwise, we wouldn't see a list of possible adverse reactions.

I think the demographics will be interesting (if we ever get to see them). I'd like to see some studies done on these mass shooting perpetrators as well including medical history and drug prescription/usage.

Just to be clear, I don't believe the drugs are alone causal...there is obviously an underlying issue. But that doesn't mean they aren't causal at all.

[bwaites]

Bill, I just can't accept the analogy or your 100% confidence in meds.

I CERTAINLY am not 100% confident in psychiatric medications. I have never said I am, that would be in direct contradiction to anything I have actually said. I have said that blaming the meds is akin to blaming the gun. These people are ON the meds BECAUSE they already exhibit these tendencies. NOBODY puts healthy people on these meds for treatment! Perhaps my attitude is best explained by this statement; "Every medication I prescribe is a poison that I use in very small amounts for its beneficial side effects." When those side effects outweigh the benefit, then I would never subscribe to the use of those meds.

My brother had a break down while enrolled in Rice University in the late 60's. He was in Navy ROTC. Everything seemed normal, and then a break down within days of a ROTC "party". There was a suspicion that he was a casualty of the CIAs LSD program (MKUltra). I haven't found any evidence it was conducted at Rice University or not...

I do know that on some of the meds, he was fine. On some meds, he was an absolute menace.

Of course, and we don't always know which med will cause which side effect. That's a big piece of the art associated with the "Healing Arts".

I'm sure you don't intend to omit, but not everyone reacts the same to all of the meds. Some people will have adverse side effects to include undesired behaviors and/or a lack of ability to process right from wrong.

I'm not suggesting that all meds are EVIL...I get that some people need to be on meds. But I firmly believe that our society is over medicated and over vaccinated

Certainly, some people have untoward side effects. Unfortunately, our mental health system is not well equipped for that monitoring. Insurance won't pay for daily counseling and medication adjustment visits, and people won't even follow up when insurance WOULD pay!

I agree our mental health system is broke...I'll thank the ACLU for that one (patients rights). Sure, reform was needed but we ended up with no mental health institutions to speak of when we really needed to fix the abuses.

You can't ignore that the overwhelming majority of "mass murder" shootings were perpetrated teenagers or young adults who were on psychotropic meds...that has to be a huge RED FLAG.

Nope, and I don't, but once again, you must accept that these guys may very well have acted out regardless of the meds, because they have given some indication that they were in trouble to start with, thus the medications were started!


I'm with LRRPF52...I don't fully trust the "double blind" studies. I've done Operations Research...data can be manipulated.

What do you trust? At some point you have to say, this will most likely work, and we have to try it.

OK, I'm going to give you a case:

Lets say you have a soldier or Marine, recently discharged. Beautiful new wife, well set up 25 year old who got out 18 months ago after 2 tours in Afghanistan.

He was diagnosed with PTSD before discharge, after having multiple TBI's (Traumatic Brain Injuries for the uninitiated) secondary to multiple IED explosions in close proximity, (One IED where his vehicle was destroyed and two buddies killed, another a week later where an airstrike dropped 200 yards short of the designated grid, within 15 yards of his patrol.) He had other IED's go off in close proximity, but those two blasts were within a week of each other.

He doesn't feel like he has PTSD, but he admits he can't sleep at night consistently, has severe headaches and has horrible, indescribable dreams. His wife is a gem, and she says he has never once been threatening, nor has she ever felt he was threatening. He says he doesn't want to hurt himself of anyone he knows. He served as a Marine, followed orders and did his best to be a good Marine. Talking with him is really a pleasure.

But he is obviously disturbed by the sleep issues, headaches, and dreams. Most of his problem is probably TBI induced, and you can't yet make a PTSD diagnosis, though the military and VA system is convinced he has PTSD. They put him on meds, which didn't help with his sleep or headaches and didn't stop the dreams. He was released from care without any meds, which is fine, because it makes the job of evaluation easier, you don't have to worry about the meds complicating your evaluation.

IF the military, with literally THOUSANDS of veterans with the diagnosis can't figure out this PTSD and mental health issue, with essentially unlimited funds compared to the rest of health care, why would anyone else have a remote chance?

Meds aren't THE answer, the answer is way more complicated than a pill. But the meds aren't the issue, either. Just like guns don't kill people, meds don't either. The pathology has to be there to even consider starting someone on meds. Our theoretical soldier/Marine above doesn't have that pathology, at least from what is stated above. BUT....what if he did? Are you willing to do nothing, knowing that there may very well be a time bomb ticking?

[BjornF16]

What do you trust? At some point you have to say, this will most likely work, and we have to try it.

OK, I'm going to give you a case:

Lets say you have a soldier or Marine, recently discharged. Beautiful new wife, well set up 25 year old who got out 18 months ago after 2 tours in Afghanistan.

He was diagnosed with PTSD before discharge, after having multiple TBI's (Traumatic Brain Injuries for the uninitiated) secondary to multiple IED explosions in close proximity, (One IED where his vehicle was destroyed and two buddies killed, another a week later where an airstrike dropped 200 yards short of the designated grid, within 15 yards of his patrol.) He had other IED's go off in close proximity, but those two blasts were within a week of each other.

He doesn't feel like he has PTSD, but he admits he can't sleep at night consistently, has severe headaches and has horrible, indescribable dreams. His wife is a gem, and she says he has never once been threatening, nor has she ever felt he was threatening. He says he doesn't want to hurt himself of anyone he knows. He served as a Marine, followed orders and did his best to be a good Marine. Talking with him is really a pleasure.

But he is obviously disturbed by the sleep issues, headaches, and dreams. Most of his problem is probably TBI induced, and you can't yet make a PTSD diagnosis, though the military and VA system is convinced he has PTSD. They put him on meds, which didn't help with his sleep or headaches and didn't stop the dreams. He was released from care without any meds, which is fine, because it makes the job of evaluation easier, you don't have to worry about the meds complicating your evaluation.

IF the military, with literally THOUSANDS of veterans with the diagnosis can't figure out this PTSD and mental health issue, with essentially unlimited funds compared to the rest of health care, why would anyone else have a remote chance?

Meds aren't THE answer, the answer is way more complicated than a pill. But the meds aren't the issue, either. Just like guns don't kill people, meds don't either. The pathology has to be there to even consider starting someone on meds. Our theoretical soldier/Marine above doesn't have that pathology, at least from what is stated above. BUT....what if he did? Are you willing to do nothing, knowing that there may very well be a time bomb ticking?

Are you "yelling" with boldface?...LOL.

Mea culpa on the 100% comment...you didn't say it, but I inferred it.

I'm a hopeless case...I believe drugs can be mind altering and behavior modifying (for good and bad). Maybe some of these folks are inclined to anti-social behaviors, but I firmly believe that the meds can be pushing them over the edge. I have no proof that is so...no one has any proof it isn't so.

Every case is different. I realize the challenge is to determine which are ticking time bombs.

For a lot of personal reasons, my opinion of doctors in general isn't very high. I know there are some really good doctors out there, but I find that the doctors who REALLY care seem to be far fewer than in years past. American doctors (IMO) tend to be pill pushers instead of good old fashioned docs. Not trying to insult anyone...just my personal opinion based upon my family's personal experiences. (BTW, one of my brother's is an ENT doc...while I respect his professional opinions, I in no way subscribe to all of his professional opinions).

[JASmith]

Bill,

"Time bomb ticking" sounds rather scary.

Your example suggests that the young man is controlling whatever bothers him as well as anyone can expect. My personal experience suggests that the chances are good that the dreams and sleep problems will ease with time, but not disappear completely.

I will accept that anyone can "snap" if adequately provoked and that some folks' thresholds are lower than others.

Speaking as a partly knowledgeable lay-person, however, I would submit that the folks committing the majority of these atrocities exhibited overt symptoms that should not have been ignored.

Our mental health system failed both them and their victims.

[LRRPF52]

When Bill described the theoretical Marine above, I was thinking of several guys I know, and wondering which one he was talking about. One of them went to the clinic with his unit (yes, he had been hit with 2 VBIED's within 30 sec of each other on one day during OIF in 2005, held his dying brother in his arms on another day where a sniper in Ramadi shot his gunner through the neck, then almost drowned in an armored vehicle on another deployment to Afghanistan when it fell into a river).

He complained of all the symptoms Bill mentioned ver batim, and they told him he's good-to-go, and to stop coming to the clinic. They weren't going to give him a PTSD diagnosis if he ran in there butt-naked covered in MRE peanut butter. They did CAT Scans, MRI's, verbal interviews where he described the headaches, unprovoked fits of rage, aggression, and agitation. "Suck it up and drive on soldier, no diagnosis for you." He said they implied that he was faking to get out of deploying, and this kid actually loved to deploy, as long as he got to go outside the wire.

Now imagine taking someone from similar circumstances, with 2-6 combat deployments, and pulling them out of their comfort zone around other men, weapons, equipment, and real-world missions. Drop them into fairytale civilian life surrounded by millions of attention-deficit dipsticks who have no clue what the real world is like outside the US, where our "poverty bracket" lives with luxuries like bathtubs, obesity, and easy-access 24/7 entertainment, with no physical labor.

Even worse, have one of these types of people as a manager at your new place of employment, if you're blessed enough to even find a job, treating you like the part-timer straight out of high school, while you look at his/her "leadership style" and quietly reserve the series of images of the physical and verbal destruction sequences he or she would experience in the organization you just came from, where such incompetence would be squashed...extinguished for the pathetic weakness it is.

Then you see propaganda hit pieces on Pravda talking about what's going on with the wars, and wonder why you're back here, when you should be there next to America's finest professionals dishing out 5.56 & 7.62 into bugger-eaters' faces, and taking care of business. Then you realize how much you despise the careerist schmucks who suck off the camouflage welfare system, while padding their NCOERs and OERs to ensure the highest pay grade for retirement with minimal risk, and you feel like you don't belong in either place.

You can't talk with your family about living for weeks on-end in the same clothes, with cheesy crotch rot and no re-supply from your XO or 1SG, who forgot about you and your Squad's OP, and the conditions 3rd-world people live in who you lived off of. You speak a different language filled with a laundry list of acronyms, jargon, and nicknames peculiar to combat arms guys, and even more peculiar from one service to the next. Try editing your vocabulary after years of around-the-clock "F*** this, you f***ing f***, f***bag, motherf***ing, f***stick son of a f***ing f***!"

You could have been raised by nuns, and leave that environment with some serious life issues, but somebody has to do the job. My hat goes off to someone like Chris Kyle who is willing to do all he can to help guys like this rehabilitate back into society. If what they say is true about the perp, he might not have even been cognizant of his actions until later, when he allegedly told his sister, "I traded my soul for a truck today..."

It's all about taking calculated risks at the end of the day.

[bwaites]

Are you "yelling" with boldface?...LOL.

Mea culpa on the 100% comment...you didn't say it, but I inferred it.

I'm a hopeless case...I believe drugs can be mind altering and behavior modifying (for good and bad). Maybe some of these folks are inclined to anti-social behaviors, but I firmly believe that the meds can be pushing them over the edge. I have no proof that is so...no one has any proof it isn't so.

Every case is different. I realize the challenge is to determine which are ticking time bombs.

For a lot of personal reasons, my opinion of doctors in general isn't very high. I know there are some really good doctors out there, but I find that the doctors who REALLY care seem to be far fewer than in years past. American doctors (IMO) tend to be pill pushers instead of good old fashioned docs. Not trying to insult anyone...just my personal opinion based upon my family's personal experiences. (BTW, one of my brother's is an ENT doc...while I respect his professional opinions, I in no way subscribe to all of his professional opinions).

Sorry, not yelling; using boldface to make sure that it was obvious what I was saying vs. your original.

I'll agree that there is no proof either way on the cases mentioned. I can, however, document cases where someone intervened just before a catastrophe, and meds were helpful to get that individual back on track. I know of at least one case where the individual was armed, on his way, and was stopped by a friend who transported him to the ER, and then he was admitted for inpatient care for a couple weeks.

He has been stable, on meds now for nearly 10 years. He does not keep firearms in his possession, (his choice), but does enjoy shooting from time to time. He has maintained his concealed permit, though I'm not sure how, since he fits the criteria for an automatic decline. Fortunately, he isn't a patient of mine, and the individual who maintains his firearms is well trained on what to watch for with him. I've been beside him on the range, and he is very respectful, very safe, and very helpful. He only shoots a double barrel shotgun, and single shot rifles. I always wondered why until a friend clued me in. So far as I know, he has never threatened anyone since that first episode.

Its possible that he petitioned and got his firearms rights back, because that is a possibilty, too. I do know he still takes meds, because he jokes about it.

Old fashioned docs used a lot of art, and a little medicine. Try staying in business today using that formula! People today get downright angry when I tell them their symptoms are consistent with a virus, and that no meds ar necessary, they will get better on their own. They want a pill, right now!

I encourage my patients to get online and learn everything they can about their disease, because anyone can be an expert on what they have. The information is out there. Learn your way to good health. But way to many people just want a pill and everything to be better.

[jawbone]

When Bill described the theoretical Marine above, I was thinking of several guys I know, and wondering which one he was talking about. One of them went to the clinic with his unit (yes, he had been hit with 2 VBIED's within 30 sec of each other on one day during OIF in 2005, held his dying brother in his arms on another day where a sniper in Ramadi shot his gunner through the neck, then almost drowned in an armored vehicle on another deployment to Afghanistan when it fell into a river).

He complained of all the symptoms Bill mentioned ver batim, and they told him he's good-to-go, and to stop coming to the clinic. They weren't going to give him a PTSD diagnosis if he ran in there butt-naked covered in MRE peanut butter. They did CAT Scans, MRI's, verbal interviews where he described the headaches, unprovoked fits of rage, aggression, and agitation. "Suck it up and drive on soldier, no diagnosis for you." He said they implied that he was faking to get out of deploying, and this kid actually loved to deploy, as long as he got to go outside the wire.

Now imagine taking someone from similar circumstances, with 2-6 combat deployments, and pulling them out of their comfort zone around other men, weapons, equipment, and real-world missions. Drop them into fairytale civilian life surrounded by millions of attention-deficit dipsticks who have no clue what the real world is like outside the US, where our "poverty bracket" lives with luxuries like bathtubs, obesity, and easy-access 24/7 entertainment, with no physical labor.

Even worse, have one of these types of people as a manager at your new place of employment, if you're blessed enough to even find a job, treating you like the part-timer straight out of high school, while you look at his/her "leadership style" and quietly reserve the series of images of the physical and verbal destruction sequences he or she would experience in the organization you just came from, where such incompetence would be squashed...extinguished for the pathetic weakness it is.

Then you see propaganda hit pieces on Pravda talking about what's going on with the wars, and wonder why you're back here, when you should be there next to America's finest professionals dishing out 5.56 & 7.62 into bugger-eaters' faces, and taking care of business. Then you realize how much you despise the careerist schmucks who suck off the camouflage welfare system, while padding their NCOERs and OERs to ensure the highest pay grade for retirement with minimal risk, and you feel like you don't belong in either place.

You can't talk with your family about living for weeks on-end in the same clothes, with cheesy crotch rot and no re-supply from your XO or 1SG, who forgot about you and your Squad's OP, and the conditions 3rd-world people live in who you lived off of. You speak a different language filled with a laundry list of acronyms, jargon, and nicknames peculiar to combat arms guys, and even more peculiar from one service to the next. Try editing your vocabulary after years of around-the-clock "F*** this, you f***ing f***, f***bag, motherf***ing, f***stick son of a f***ing f***!"

You could have been raised by nuns, and leave that environment with some serious life issues, but somebody has to do the job. My hat goes off to someone like Chris Kyle who is willing to do all he can to help guys like this rehabilitate back into society. If what they say is true about the perp, he might not have even been cognizant of his actions until later, when he allegedly told his sister, "I traded my soul for a truck today..."

It's all about taking calculated risks at the end of the day.

fantastic post, LRRP. preach it, brother!

[bwaites]

When Bill described the theoretical Marine above, I was thinking of several guys I know, and wondering which one he was talking about. One of them went to the clinic with his unit (yes, he had been hit with 2 VBIED's within 30 sec of each other on one day during OIF in 2005, held his dying brother in his arms on another day where a sniper in Ramadi shot his gunner through the neck, then almost drowned in an armored vehicle on another deployment to Afghanistan when it fell into a river).

He complained of all the symptoms Bill mentioned ver batim, and they told him he's good-to-go, and to stop coming to the clinic. They weren't going to give him a PTSD diagnosis if he ran in there butt-naked covered in MRE peanut butter. They did CAT Scans, MRI's, verbal interviews where he described the headaches, unprovoked fits of rage, aggression, and agitation. "Suck it up and drive on soldier, no diagnosis for you." He said they implied that he was faking to get out of deploying, and this kid actually loved to deploy, as long as he got to go outside the wire.

Now imagine taking someone from similar circumstances, with 2-6 combat deployments, and pulling them out of their comfort zone around other men, weapons, equipment, and real-world missions. Drop them into fairytale civilian life surrounded by millions of attention-deficit dipsticks who have no clue what the real world is like outside the US, where our "poverty bracket" lives with luxuries like bathtubs, obesity, and easy-access 24/7 entertainment, with no physical labor.

Even worse, have one of these types of people as a manager at your new place of employment, if you're blessed enough to even find a job, treating you like the part-timer straight out of high school, while you look at his/her "leadership style" and quietly reserve the series of images of the physical and verbal destruction sequences he or she would experience in the organization you just came from, where such incompetence would be squashed...extinguished for the pathetic weakness it is.

Then you see propaganda hit pieces on Pravda talking about what's going on with the wars, and wonder why you're back here, when you should be there next to America's finest professionals dishing out 5.56 & 7.62 into bugger-eaters' faces, and taking care of business. Then you realize how much you despise the careerist schmucks who suck off the camouflage welfare system, while padding their NCOERs and OERs to ensure the highest pay grade for retirement with minimal risk, and you feel like you don't belong in either place.

You can't talk with your family about living for weeks on-end in the same clothes, with cheesy crotch rot and no re-supply from your XO or 1SG, who forgot about you and your Squad's OP, and the conditions 3rd-world people live in who you lived off of. You speak a different language filled with a laundry list of acronyms, jargon, and nicknames peculiar to combat arms guys, and even more peculiar from one service to the next. Try editing your vocabulary after years of around-the-clock "F*** this, you f***ing f***, f***bag, motherf***ing, f***stick son of a f***ing f***!"

You could have been raised by nuns, and leave that environment with some serious life issues, but somebody has to do the job. My hat goes off to someone like Chris Kyle who is willing to do all he can to help guys like this rehabilitate back into society. If what they say is true about the perp, he might not have even been cognizant of his actions until later, when he allegedly told his sister, "I traded my soul for a truck today..."

It's all about taking calculated risks at the end of the day.

I know too many good guys who have these kinds of stories. I agree, its a travesty that we haven't figured this out better.

I have a clinic in a small town, but we have two criminal correction facilities, and ex-military guys seem drawn like flies. They get to still wear a uniform, get paid A LOT better, and have a regular schedule. BUT a fair number have some background issues. These stories are too common.

I still thank every one who comes in for their service, and we work on what we can.

Thanks to all the vets on this board for their service, too!

For those of you that don't know, LRRPF52 and I are good friends who very much enjoy each others company (Well, I enjoy his, at least!). We have some difference in age, and obviously, we have some difference in opinions about some things. BUT...I would trust him to the end of the world to cover my back. He is incredibly good at what he does. I respect his opinions, and I can argue with him without malice. We have different experiences, and that has given us different viewpoints, but I treasure and respect him. If it appears that we are after each other, its because we both know that we can trust the other to not take the attack personally, and also know that the other respects our opinion, even if it differs.

There is a story told about a boy who ask his dad what a "good ol boy" is. The father says, "Well, you know this gentlemen that I meet every week, the ones that are well educated and have done well? The ones who own their own businesses, or have made big businessess from little ones? The men who treat women with respect, honor their elders, and give lots of help to the poor and weak? The ones who make sure the widows have fire wood in the winter and ice in the summer? The ones who are always around when someone needs a helping hand, and always show up to funerals?" The boy says, "Yes, I see you with them, and I know some are judges and doctors and even lawyers." The father says, "That's right". The boys says, "So are those good ol' boys?" and the dad says. "Good old boys are a step above them!"

That's my opinion of LRRPF52 and few others that I've met here, they are good ol' boys from that mold!

[wheelguner]

This thread has wandered and roamed over a bit of territory so I'm going to swerve a bit to share this:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/TNJ9umv10EM?feature=player_detailpage

I am humbled by what this man does.

[KentuckyBuddha]

Wow, that was really very touching wheelguner, thanks for sharing that.