What really makes a name brand upper or lower any better.

[Kenney0928]

I've been playing around with AR style rifles for close to a decade now and just last year started building them. I work at a machine shop and it has made me curious as to why do people think name brand upper or lower receivers are any better than cheaper ones? Leaving billet receivers out of the topic and just talking forged. Since they are all 7075 forged alluminum and mil spec. What really makes spikes better than say PSA or anderson mfg? I use odin works bolts and barrels and black rain ordanace lower parts kits. And my rifles shoot perfectly and all group under an inch at a 100 yards. So is it just a label whore thing to get a name brand upper and lower receiver or am I missing something?

[FRB6.5]

The final machining and finishing. Some are better and more consistent at it than others. That being said just because some brands are expensive doesn't mean they are great at it either or won't have periodic issues.

An example would be BCM, their uppers pretty much require thermo-fitting of barrels, because of that they tend to shoot well provided a decent barrel is used. Their lowers on the other hand may or may not work with Gen 3 P-Mags, again because they tend to run towards the tighter end of tolerances.

[Klem]

Kenney,

You're not missing anything, other than a misconception that all lowers are 7075. Relatively few uppers and lowers are 7075, most are 6065.

Brand equity is alive and well in the gun industry. Some manufacturers encourage and lean on it more than others and some take advantage of it. For example LaRue, Noveske, Magpul rely heavily on branding knowing the power of word-of-mouth. They encourage the use of stickers and T Shirts and caps. You pay for the privilege of course, to walk around advertising their business. Some believe in their brands almost like a religion, becoming unashamed 'fanboys'. It just demonstrates how vulnerable to marketing manipulation some shooters are. Like consumers who get Harley Davidson tattooed on their skin not realizing it's just a bike manufacturer and the lifestyle that goes with it is hyperreal and engineered. I guess if you live in a consumer culture the distinction between products and life becomes blurred. I doubt if too many Harley Davidson executives will have tattooed their workplace logo on their skin.

To some people, guns are more than a tool of utility. That's when branding and what it looks like becomes important. Sometimes more important than how it shoots.

[rebby]

When we started cutting our own lowers (based on forgings) I really geeked out on all of this. Eventually we settled on 7075-T6 and I've forgotten more about the alloys than I remember. I do recall that the 7075-T6 was a pretty good fit for our lowers and we've been very happy with our choice (there are different tempers to 7075, I'm not sure what designation the majority of forgings are - you could probably educate me!).

It goes past materials though, as FRB6.5 mentioned the final machining is what really separates one lower from the next, for good or bad. Again, when we first got into this, we bought every stripped lower that we could find. From the $24 budget special to the $249 billet race lowers, we had a sample of them all. We built and tore down every lower more times than I care to remember using every LPK we could get our hands on (again from the dollar store special to the fully machined ultra premium) and took copious notes along the way. What worked, what didn't, where did we run into problems, what was too tight, what was too loose, what problems did we run into along the way, we checked various magazines (this was pre-PMAG) and uppers, tried every trigger would could get our hands on, etc, etc... We then sat down w/the current mil-spec schematics and spec'd them all out. In the end, we compiled all this data to arrive at exactly how we wanted to build our own. In the end we built them as close to the initial design parameters as we could and did everything that we could to eliminate tolerance stacking (despite the added cost in doing so) and increase strength in the critical spots. What we ended up with is lowers that are true to spec and absolutely dead on as far as holes being in the right place, the deck being level, and the buffer tube being square to the rest of the gun. Again, as FRB6.5 mentioned, the price we ended up paying in the end for sticking true to tolerances is that oversized mags (yep, a lot of PMAGs are out of spec) don't always drop free. If that's a deal breaker, it's nothing that a file and some Alumahide won't fix.

That said, lowers have gotten a lot better over the years. Even the ultra cheap lowers are more in spec today than they were even 10 years ago and you run into fewer and fewer problems now than you once did. I'm still happy that we spent the extra time and expense to get the lowers up to the level of quality that we demand, even if PMAGs don't always drop free and the costs were a little higher.

Another thing to consider is that the lower is "the gun" and holds your serial number. It's the single part that isn't easily and readily swapped out after placing an order at your favorite online retailer. For that reason alone, especially considering the political climate when it comes to EBRs, I tend to stick with higher quality lowers. As you mentioned however, I've seen crappy polymer based lowers produce some pretty nice groups. Grab what you want and go shoot!

[LRRPF52]

A lot of manufacturers advertise their parts or rifles as Mil-Spec, when they aren't anything even close to it with a single part on the gun.

Because parts look the same on the outside, many people in the industry assume that they are, while scheming around the dealer/distributor/business pricing they see for the real cheap parts.

Take M4 uppers as an example. Aside from the call-outs for the alloy, the anodizing process, and critical dimensions (the raceway and extension ID has to be held to a certain spec or they are rejected), the Mil-STD also calls for a specific baked-on dry film lube to be applied to the inside of the upper, the RET, and aluminum mags. Dry film baked on helps suspend the lubricant used to keep the BCG running correctly in the raceway. Can a gun work without it? Sure, but it will not sustain thick lube in place as long.

The TDP also calls for a square receiver face, certain alignment of the 1913 rail in reference to the raceway and barrel extension bore center, and a laundry list of other call-outs consumers will never know about.

Very few manufacturers know about this, nor do they care to incorporate those features into the uppers. The ones that do come from a perspective of understanding or interpreting the TDP to meet time-tested requirements, mainly those to meet the arctic proofing up at Greely in Alaska. I could take up a whole page just talking about the upper receiver by itself and the TDP until you died of boredom. I could then spend another few pages talking about lowers, RETs, LPKs, barrels, bolts, carriers, cam pins, firing pins, detents, springs, extractors, barrel extensions, FSBs and gas blocks, gas ports, gas tubes, charge handles, etc.

A lot of very ill-informed people think of the Mil-Spec or Mil-STD as some bare bones, easily-achieved set of requirements from a lowest-bidder that they improve on, but the truth is only a handful of companies understand and reach for the TDP from a constant state of processes, checks, and inspections. I learned this the hard way with various FakeR-15s over decades. No, I don't own a single Colt AR15 nor am I a brand fanboy.

3 things that have really illustrated these things for me:

* High volume shooting with both Mil-Spec (real AR15s, M16s, M4s, M4A1s) and non Mil-Spec guns, especially in extreme cold conditions
* Getting into the Retro early AR15s of the 1957-1967 time frame, including acquisition of parts
* Stuffing 6.5 Grendel into the AR15 and learning about why certain things are what they are

Parts are definitely not the same. Most parts are meant for a market where the consumer maybe plinks a little here and there, without any concern for long-term reliability, durability, or functionality for extreme conditions.

[37L1]

LRRPF52,

What uppers (and lowers) do you prefer for your builds?

[rabiddawg]

rebby, who is “we”?

[rebby]

rebby, who is “we”?

By saying "we" I was referring to myself and my business parter in my custom firearms business (07 FFL). We had another 07 FFL (a gunsmith with 50+ years of experience and a LOT of experience w/the AR platform) and a handful of others (with various backgrounds ranging from Swat/Special-Ops to specialists in metallurgy and machining) assisting us with our initial lower development project as well. It was a small, but very dedicated, team effort.

[A5BLASTER]

By saying "we" I was referring to myself and my business parter in my custom firearms business (07 FFL). We had another 07 FFL (a gunsmith with 50+ years of experience and a LOT of experience w/the AR platform) and a handful of others (with various backgrounds ranging from Swat/Special-Ops to specialists in metallurgy and machining) assisting us with our initial lower development project as well. It was a small, but very dedicated, team effort.

Who is "we" as in name of buisness.

I'm sure members here would like to do business with one of our own.

[LRRPF52]

LRRPF52,

What uppers (and lowers) do you prefer for your builds?

I generally order only from a select range of forged uppers now, then will measure those uppers and either match them based on barrel extension mating (tight), or reject them.

The forged M4 7075T6 uppers I have had the best results from include:


* Alexander Arms (believe it or not). I just built an upper with an AA 18" fluted barrel and AA 6.5 GREN marked upper, which had a perfectly square receiver face, and baked-on dry film lube inside the raceway. I used that same type of upper on my 12" pistol build as well. AA has one of the most overlooked, high quality 5.56 set of rifles as well for these reasons, from the work Bill did to make sure they applied the TDP where he felt was relevant.

* Aero Precision (my Aero Precision M4 with no Forward Assist does not seem to have dry film lube baked on inside the raceway)

* BCM: These guys work extremely hard to follow and ride certain edges of the TDP, to include very tight barrel extension tunnels, dry film lube, machining, coatings, 1913 alignment, etc.)

* Colt (Even old 1970s-era SP-1 uppers I've measured had a perfectly square face)

* JP Enterprises: Top-notch precision-machined forged receivers that are matched

* Les Baer: Super tight machined forged & matched sets

* Precision Firearms: Mark at PF takes precision-machined forged receiver sets to a very tight level of tolerances, and his forged lowers are one of my favorites, and currently what I have on my 12" Grendel. 50˚ funneled magazine well, receiver tensioning adjustment if desired, and overall great machining.

* Wilson Combat: Wilson Combat has been making precision-machined and fitted forged receiver sets for a long time now, with an attention to detail coming from his 1911 approach to building. His 2000s-era rifles influenced a lot of how I approached my own AR15 builds looking at fitting, coatings barrel profile, trigger work, and overall functionality

Before I even do anything with an upper, I insert my receiver face lapping tool in it and hold it up to the light to see if there is a gap anywhere on the receiver face. I just checked one that my brother had, which he indicated was from Radical Firearms. It has no dry film baked on inside, no T markings, and the face is so out of square it will require a lot of work to get there when I lap it. Very noticeable gap between the top end of the interface of the barrel extension flange and the receiver face, which would likely result in vertical stringing and imbalanced load on the bottom 2 bolt lugs. It has an "A" forge code, which doesn't reflect badly on that forge source, just poor machining and lack of even attempting to reach for the TDP call-outs.


The only reason I order some of the Aero uppers is for that no-Forward Assist option for a forged M4 on a streamlined gun like my 17.6" Lilja build.

If I were putting together a forged set right now that was not from one of the shops that leans more towards billet guns, I would get either AA or BCM.

If I wanted no FA, I would get the Aero again, but I've lately been delving more into billet sets from LaRue, ADM, Seekins, and 2A.

My days of building on forged sets for myself might be coming to an end, as I really like the features on the above billet sets.

[37L1]

Thanks for the information and education!

[rebby]

Who is "we" as in name of buisness.

I'm sure members here would like to do business with one of our own.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I wanted to double check with BluntForceTrauma before replying since I didn't want to do anything that could be considered "advertising" without first asking permission. He gave me the go ahead to share (Thanks!) via PM.

I own a small 07 FFL in MN called Six Sigma Arms, LLC. As the name implies, we founded the business with a focus on building the highest quality firearms that we could regardless of what that meant for other factors (cost & time). We started out with a deep focus on defensive firearms and have built a lot of carbines for law enforcement over the years. The majority of our LEO guns have gone to officers who work in harsh weather conditions (like extreme cold) that couldn't get other guns to work reliably. To them, it was worth the extra cost to have a carbine that would run equally well in January as August. We still maintain that level of focus for quality and reliability on our guns intended for defensive use and won't sell anything less.

We actually connected with Bill and team at Alexander Arms very shortly after getting our license sorted out and started testing the 6.5 Grendel and 50 Beowolf. We've been very happy with both but especially with the 6.5 Grendel. Over the years we've been asked to build quite a few 6.8 guns yet, to this date, we never have. Every one of our potential 6.8 customers now owns a Grendel.

Anyway, we'd love to help out the horde anyway that we can. We're continuously setting up new dealer contracts with other companies as there is demand so there is a good chance that we can get whatever you need. Unlike a lot of others though, we don't buy in high quantities so we can't always compete on prices (we could always help with group buys though which could change that quickly). Due to our heritage we do have accounts with some of the best of the best like Schmidt & Bender, Geissele, WOA, Ed Brown, WC, ATC, etc (just to name a quick few). Now that we're building more and more hunting guns we're branching out and adding/testing a lot more stuff than we used to and we've been pleasantly surprised. For example, Primary Arms optics and even PSA uppers (I'm actively testing a pair of 12" Grendels right now that will, hopefully, become deer/hog guns for my kids - generally we won't sell anything that we wouldn't run ourselves). For the most part the "average" components have gotten better over the years. It wasn't that long ago where you could only realistically build a quality gun using certain parts from select manufactures.

Since we're more of a custom shop than anything else, we don't promote much on our website at all. In fact, it's long overdue for a complete rebuild (even a few images have gone missing over the years for various reasons). Feel free to contact me here though and I'll do what I can to get you taken care of. If there are group buys that the horde would like to see, I can see what our options are there as well. Of course, some products have strict MAP policies so (depending on the specifics) a group buy may require some sort of bundle.

Thanks again for the interest.

[Texas]

Most of the forged 7075 T6 lowers are made from Cerro forgings and are CNC machined to M16 blueprints with the exception of the auto sear hole, and the trigger group area which was changed to make it more difficult to install an auto trigger group. Sabre Defence changed their logo lowers and uppers by moving the connecting pin holes .001 to make the uppers and lowers to fit tighter, and the upper and lower were hand matched and fitted. Some manufacturerd make these small changes to provide differentiators to try to seperate them from the other manufacturers. This is done to try to make a higher profit margin.

[Kswhitetails]

[jurassic]

I've had the best luck with BCM, I like the dry lube and the tight fit of almost every barrel that I have installed. They also fit every lower I've tried them on, not everything does. Brownells sells them and I love Brownells (shameless plug for a great company.)