Another copper fouling question!

[High_n_Dry]

There seems to be two schools of thought, either try to keep the barrel clean of copper or let the barrel reach a equilibrium and leave the copper in the barrel.

I'm more of the 2nd school of thought. In my other guns, I clean. the barrel after a couple hundred rounds with a couple patches with Boretech and then run a bore snake through. Boretech does carbon and copper and I can see plenty of blue after the carbon is out, so I know I'm leaving copper in the bore.

The reason I built the Grendel is for hunting, but also to try my hand at long range shooting. In this context, I would like to maintain accuracy. I'm leaning towards doing the same regimen as I do for my other rifles. The part I'm a little stuck on is that many people say to leave the copper until you see accuracy problems and then clean out the copper. If you believe in the equilibrium theory, it seems counterintuitive that you would want to get out all the copper out and start at square one again.

[Klem]

High,

You could run that cleaning rod down a plastic pipe and the patches would come out blue. False positive indications of copper when using brass tipped cleaning rods are normal. Even worse after using a brass brush.

If you agree that removing copper is counter productive to shooting then you could use a bore cleaner that removes carbon only. Boretech Eliminator will be messing with your zero every time it strips copper. You will find a number of guys here don't clean their barrels every time they shoot - I'm one of them.

[High_n_Dry]

I should have mentioned that I use Boretech proof positive jag and Boretech cleaning rod, so no false positive on the copper.
Thanks for your viewpoint.

[LR1955]

I should have mentioned that I use Boretech proof positive jag and Boretech cleaning rod, so no false positive on the copper.
Thanks for your viewpoint.

HnD:

Just read you other post. JP Barrel? The barrel probably isn't the problem.

Jacket material can also really copper up barrels no matter how good the barrel. Lake City ball of my era would copper up a barrel terribly. So, what ammo seems to be fowling the barrels? Could be someone on the Forum has shot the same ammo so maybe you can find out more of what is going on and maybe find a solution if it is a problem.

Klem is right that many times guy use copper brushes or jags and combined with copper solvent -- they really turn patches blue. Yes -- I know you are using instruments that will not dissolve in copper solvent.

LR-55

[High_n_Dry]

Maybe I should be more clear, I don't have a problem with copper fouling the JP barrel. What I'm wondering is if most folks are like Klem and not ever cleaning out the copper or should you clean out the copper when accuracy suffers.

[Lemonaid]

There seems to be two schools of thought, either try to keep the barrel clean of copper or let the barrel reach a equilibrium and leave the copper in the barrel.

I'm more of the 2nd school of thought. In my other guns, I clean. the barrel after a couple hundred rounds with a couple patches with Boretech and then run a bore snake through. Boretech does carbon and copper and I can see plenty of blue after the carbon is out, so I know I'm leaving copper in the bore.

The reason I built the Grendel is for hunting, but also to try my hand at long range shooting. In this context, I would like to maintain accuracy. I'm leaning towards doing the same regimen as I do for my other rifles. The part I'm a little stuck on is that many people say to leave the copper until you see accuracy problems and then clean out the copper. If you believe in the equilibrium theory, it seems counterintuitive that you would want to get out all the copper out and start at square one again.

Your point is well taken. Suppose it takes 500 rounds until copper build up degrades accuracy enough to need correcting, a hunter may be fine for years. A match shooter might need copper removal after only two or three matches. If you start with a copper free barrel, you will likely have another 500 rounds problem free. A partial cleaning might only give 300 rounds problem free but would get back in the accuracy zone with less fouling shots. A trade off like a lot of things in life. Then there is the CFE 223 type of powders. If I recall correctly from an article I read CFE would take out copper from a previously fouled barrel. It would be a nice range report to shoot one mag of non copper reducing powder loads, then a mag of CFE loads and keep alternating and see how long if ever it would take for copper to degrade accuracy.

[High_n_Dry]

That's a good point, back in the day, my hunting rifle got shot about 10-15 shots/year!
At the start of the season, me and my dad would go to the range to sight in the rifle. Once I got in the X-ring, my dad would yell at me to stop shooting and stop wasting bullets!
If he could see how many shots I take now just for fun, it would drive him crazy!

[Klem]

I haven't targeted copper in years.

I had two Boretech Copper Remover bottles (one full) which went in the bin after discussion with a fellow shooter who runs an institutional shooting team. Now I only target carbon, and only after several hundred rounds when I think the group size is opening up. The essence of the discussion was that you need copper to smooth and fill all the imperfections down the barrel. Get rid of it and it will just go on again with the next couple of rounds with your zero somewhere else until it settles. The idea that it is too much copper that blows a group out discounts other possibilities, like too much carbon or a worn throat or crown. Or a lapse of technique or just an unfortunate statistical anomaly. The occasional super tight group you think is all you is no different than the occasional huge group that is (of course) the fault of something else...copper!

In the last decade of shooting bulk groups and matches I have not noticed a degradation of group size over the life of barrels due to non removal of copper. Most of the time I don't even clean the barrel, unless it is a suppressed autoloader. The action area and BCG's are a different thing altogether and they get cleaned regularly.

High,

Why don't you forget cleaning copper for a while. Use a carbon-only cleaner and see how that goes.

[BowChamp]

I haven't targeted copper in years.

I had two Boretech Copper Remover bottles (one full) which went in the bin after discussion with a fellow shooter who runs an institutional shooting team. Now I only target carbon, and only after several hundred rounds when I think the group size is opening up. The essence of the discussion was that you need copper to smooth and fill all the imperfections down the barrel. Get rid of it and it will just go on again with the next couple of rounds with your zero somewhere else until it settles. The idea that it is too much copper that blows a group out discounts other possibilities, like too much carbon or a worn throat or crown. Or a lapse of technique or just an unfortunate statistical anomaly. The occasional super tight group you think is all you is no different than the occasional huge group that is (of course) the fault of something else...copper!

In the last decade of shooting bulk groups and matches I have not noticed a degradation of group size over the life of barrels due to non removal of copper. Most of the time I don't even clean the barrel, unless it is a suppressed autoloader. The action area and BCG's are a different thing altogether and they get cleaned regularly.

High,

Why don't you forget cleaning copper for a while. Use a carbon-only cleaner and see how that goes.

What do you recommend for carbon only cleaning??

[Klem]

Butch's Bore Shine, although there will be others that do as good a job (like JB).

For a few years we used Holden Top End carburetor cleaner (no longer made). Any soot removing product for engines should work if you can find it - probably cheaper too.

[BowChamp]

Butch's Bore Shine, although there will be others that do as good a job (like JB).

For a few years we used Holden Top End carburetor cleaner (no longer made). Any soot removing product for engines should work if you can find it - probably cheaper too.

Thank you

[ricsmall]

[BowChamp]

Thank you for the suggestion.

[Mesa1978]

Boretech C4 - does target some copper, minimal, and really cleans out the carbon. Combine with Tipton ultra jag to eliminate any false positive indications.

[Klem]

Boretech C4 - does target some copper, minimal, and really cleans out the carbon. Combine with Tipton ultra jag to eliminate any false positive indications.

Mesa,

Good to know.

If copper is not an issue then you can still use a brass brush and not care about the false positive. With Butch's you get this anyway.

A seasoned bench-rester once advised to push through with a dry brass brush first to break up the carbon coating. This supposedly makes the wet cleaning easier. You see a cloud of burnt powder dust come out the muzzle on the first stroke. I do this when I remember however not religiously.

The thing about cleaning is that everyone has a different regime and swears by it. My thoughts are to not overthink it, and not wreck barrels and zero's, or waste time and money by overcleaning.