fictitious war...pick your arms

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

...but may be appropriate for this thread.

After all, we've hundreds of pages of serious debate over alternative military cartridges. The OP appears to have attempted another discussion of the topic but with constraints that avoid much of the nay-saying some of our members are wont to engage in.

Some of us who have wearied of the debate took unfair advantage of the OP's less than clear statement of constraints on the debate by interjecting some fantasy and humor.

Should the OP want a serious discussion, the best strategy may now be to allow this thread to play out and go to ground for awhile. Then start a fresh thread with at least some of the loop-holes our folks took 'unfair' advantage of to divert the discussion from what I think the desired purpose was.

[SIZE="3"]Thank you, JASmith, for that breath of fresh air.
[/SIZE]

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

SAS:
. . .
Looks cool, functioned, and not made to fit the human body.
. . .
LR55

[Klem]

:confused: Hmm. Exactly what part of "you may choose between the ar-15 and ar10 platforms" is at all unclear???

Perfectly clear.

'Fictitious' means unreal or untrue, imaginary or fabricated. And with little other information posters were responding to this imaginary scenario accordingly (some have a sense of humour and some don't. Even 52' was struggling to make sense of it).

Actually I wanted to post my Arnie quote a lot sooner but waited for others to take the thread where it was always destined...To a galaxy, far, far away.

[stanc]

Perfectly clear.

'Fictitious' means unreal or untrue, imaginary or fabricated. And with little other information posters were responding to this imaginary scenario accordingly (some have a sense of humour and some don't. Even 52' was struggling to make sense of it).

Actually I wanted to post my Arnie quote a lot sooner but waited for others to take the thread where it was always destined...To a galaxy, far, far away.

a. The specified war is fictitious. The specified guns are not.

b. Those who responded by specifying guns other than AR10 and AR15 variants went outside the OP's parameter.

c. In the only post by LRRPF52 that I saw in this thread, he had no apparent difficulty making sense of the OP's conditions, as he gave a cogent and well-reasoned response. So I don't know how you concluded he was "struggling" with it. Unless maybe you were reading a different thread in a galaxy far, far away?

[Klem]

a. The specified war is fictitious. The specified guns are not.

b. Those who responded by specifying guns other than AR10 and AR15 variants went outside the OP's parameter.

c. In the only post by LRRPF52 that I saw in this thread, he had no apparent difficulty making sense of the OP's conditions, as he gave a cogent and well-reasoned response. So I don't know how you concluded he was "struggling" with it. Unless maybe you were reading a different thread in a galaxy far, far away?

May the Force be with you, Obistanc.

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

[SIZE="3"]Anatomy of a train wreck
[/SIZE]

So your involved in a fictitious war and need to arm yourself with a semi auto rifle. you may choose between the ar-15 and ar10 platforms. for an all around rifle which barrel length do you buy into and what caliber do you pick: 6.5 creedmore; 6.5 Grendel; 5.56; .308; others?

so in this fictitious war i am not restricted by supply train issues but am restricted to platform . . .

Need more info:
What caliber small arms is the enemy using?
Who is the enemy? (Conventional army? Guerrillas/Rebels? Terrorists?)
What is the geography? (Desert? Arctic? Jungle? Mountains?)
Will there be resupply as needed?
Will we be invading another country, or defending against an invasion?

Not knowing any other parameters as Stan mentioned, . . .
I would go 14.5" Grendel with 1/7.5" twist, suppressed with a dedicated reflex-type can that doesn't backblast into the bore, so overall length of the carbine would not be much over a standard M4 profile. . . .

[SIZE="3"]We're in the 2nd decade of the 21st Century. Why would we be limiting ourselves to the AR platform?
I would have preferred the 6.5mm Grendel chambering, but I'll take the 6.5mm Creedmoor, in the upcoming Micro Dynamic Rifle, DMR version ---
[/SIZE]

Ak74n

I can't speak for the OP, but one possibility comes to mind: AR variants are in service with a number of the world's armed forces. The MDR is not. . . .
Of course, the OP isn't clear if he means pick a gun and ammo for use by an army, or a private individual.

What are my restrictions and who am I at war with?

[SIZE="3"]fictitious war ... pick your arms

These Pages are filled with discussions on why the U.S. Military today continues with variations on the theme of the original 1960's M16, and NATO continues with the .223/5.56x45mm . . . a cartridge that some writers have referred to as a "varmint round." That's our "real" world. I saw the OP's choice of "fictitious" as the great escape from that mindset, which has marooned us in the 20th Century: . . .
One need only visit the movies to get a glimpse of future weapons design ---
We've come a long way in the recognition that shorter, more compact is better. . . .
I'd like to think that if we still had the design genius of the late Eugene Morrison Stoner with us today, we might see the reality of today's forward thinkers ---
[/SIZE]

SAS: . . . Looks cool, functioned, and not made to fit the human body. . . . Not picking a fight, just commenting on a belief that in order to be modern, one must make something look different even though its basic level of effectiveness has not changed for 110 plus years (since semi-smokeless powder and jacketed bullets).
LR55

Callahan Full Bore Auto Lock. (As long as there is oxygen in the surrounding environment!)

Vera good choice.

Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.

[SIZE="3"]When I researched the "6.2x34[mm]" shown on the AE-0006+ future assault rifle concept, I found the results --- interesting:[/SIZE]

SAS: . . . Fantasy web sites are probably not exactly reliable sources.
LR55

...but may be appropriate for this thread. After all, we've hundreds of pages of serious debate over alternative military cartridges. The OP appears to have attempted another discussion of the topic but with constraints that avoid much of the nay-saying some of our members are wont to engage in. Some of us who have wearied of the debate took unfair advantage of the OP's less than clear statement of constraints on the debate by interjecting some fantasy and humor. Should the OP want a serious discussion, the best strategy may now be to allow this thread to play out and go to ground for awhile. Then start a fresh thread with at least some of the loop-holes our folks took 'unfair' advantage of to divert the discussion from what I think the desired purpose was.

[SIZE="3"]I really don't think anyone saw this coming. I'm glad we're all OK.


[/SIZE]

[LR1955]

[quote=SHORT-N-SASSY]

Note the position in first picture. Forward stance that allows a person to control recoil, easily move forward, up, down, to the sides.

Note position in second picture. Weight is toward the back and will continue to go that way under recoil, and one has to shift the entire body forward to balance before being able to move forward, to the sides, up or down. The design of this carbine almost demands such a position for people with shorter arms. Or it demands one must stretch their arm well forward of what is natural. Not as ergonomic as it appears.

Look at mount for the optic in the second picture. I am positive it would break if it were dropped or were slammed into something.

A issue we had with the very short barrel carbines was not blowing ones finger off when stress shooting. Maybe a bit longer barrel would be of benefit.

Although anyone can learn to conform to the shape of a rifle or carbine, things are much better if the rifle or carbine conforms to the person.

My real statement is more that no matter what the package looks like, unless someone comes up with a quantum improvement in terms of the mechanism of inflicting a wound, all one is doing is taking basically 19th century technology and lethality and putting it in a package that looks different than a rifle or carbine of 100 years ago.

To 300 meters, what may be of more importance than the cartridge being used is the speed and precision in which the rifleman can use his carbine.

It isn't a matter of perspective to me but rather a conclusion brought out from experience with both designs.

Now, if someone wanted to give me one of those carbines in any caliber, I wouldn't turn them down. Just that if my life depended on it, I would stay with what we know as an M-4 .

LR55

[KentuckyBuddha]

LR55, please stop posting exactly what I am thinking when I look at pictures of those folk holding firearms almost verbatim from my internal monologue. It's worrysome and creepy. Thanks.

When I lerned of the presence of large and potentially occassionally angrified fauna at my place I plan to retire to, I immediately started planning grendel pistols to carry about on hikes and bike rides and such. I imagine that speaks to the confidence I have in those sort of pdw rounds after I have seen what they do in vivo. I am sure that is somehow germane to the conversation of a combat firearm in a hypothetical conflict. Meh, if not please disreguard.

[stanc]

Anatomy of a train wreck

I really don't think anyone saw this coming. I'm glad we're all OK.

I'm glad, too. Next time please don't derail the train.

[LR1955]

LR55, please stop posting exactly what I am thinking when I look at pictures of those folk holding firearms almost verbatim from my internal monologue. It's worrysome and creepy. Thanks.

When I lerned of the presence of large and potentially occassionally angrified fauna at my place I plan to retire to, I immediately started planning grendel pistols to carry about on hikes and bike rides and such. I imagine that speaks to the confidence I have in those sort of pdw rounds after I have seen what they do in vivo. I am sure that is somehow germane to the conversation of a combat firearm in a hypothetical conflict. Meh, if not please disreguard.

KB:

Beat you to it! He, he.

I too would say the same for the Grendel but before I bet my life on one, someone needs to prove to me that the bolt won't shear lugs as readily as they do. Way easier to change a magazine than replace a bolt.

Note I did not ask the conditions of this future conflict. This is because the US military must be prepared for conflict in any region of the world so the carbine or rifle they use must also be suited for different conditions.

And it doesn't matter what the enemy uses, has, or does. When an enemy starts to lose, they change or get defeated. So, there will never be one carbine or rifle that is perfect for every possible condition but there will be rifles and carbines that are sufficient for all conditions. Sufficient isn't perfect but gets the job done.

LR55

[cory]

The OP never stipulated that this was a foreign war or that you're the US Military. Nor did he stipulate whether you're equipping yourself, your unit, or the entire fighting force.

This may very well be a SHTF were the best suited pales in importance of common (read readily accessible) ammunition.

If your squad is using multiple small arms calibers that's a problem, a big problem.

[stanc]

Note I did not ask the conditions of this future conflict. This is because the US military must be prepared for conflict in any region of the world so the carbine or rifle they use must also be suited for different conditions.

And it doesn't matter what the enemy uses, has, or does. When an enemy starts to lose, they change or get defeated. So, there will never be one carbine or rifle that is perfect for every possible condition but there will be rifles and carbines that are sufficient for all conditions.

Gene,

That's all quite logical, except:

- OP did not say to choose the best rifle/carbine for all future wars. He specified a war. Since we only need to be concerned about selecting for one particular war, we can optimize for the specific conditions, instead of choosing a compromise. That's why the conditions are pertinent.

- Also, there is some question that the discussion even pertains to equipping the US Armed Forces, because the OP said: "So your involved in a fictitious war and need to arm yourself with a semi auto rifle. you may choose between the ar-15 and ar10 platforms." Since OP talks about the "need to arm yourself" and specifically requires a semi-auto AR10 or AR15, although the US Army uses the select-fire M4 carbine, it appears that the OP may be concerned about actions of actions of private citizens. And this is why I inquired about the enemy's rifle caliber, because if the question is the best caliber for citizens waging a guerrilla war against an invading army, it'd be useful to use the same caliber, for obvious reasons.

[LR1955]

Gene,

That's all quite logical, except:

- OP did not say to choose the best rifle/carbine for all future wars. He specified a war. Since we only need to be concerned about selecting for one particular war, we can optimize for the specific conditions, instead of choosing a compromise. That's why the conditions are pertinent.

- Also, there is some question that the discussion even pertains to equipping the US Armed Forces, because the OP said: "So your involved in a fictitious war and need to arm yourself with a semi auto rifle. you may choose between the ar-15 and ar10 platforms." Since OP talks about the "need to arm yourself" and specifically requires a semi-auto AR10 or AR15, although the US Army uses the select-fire M4 carbine, it appears that the OP may be concerned about actions of actions of private citizens. And this is why I inquired about the enemy's rifle caliber, because if the question is the best caliber for citizens waging a guerrilla war against an invading army, it'd be useful to use the same caliber, for obvious reasons.

Stan:

Roger what you are saying aside from the notion that ONE war means ONE set of physical conditions. Western Europe for example includes mountainous terrain, plains, forests, arid areas, farms, cities, villages, towns; snow, rain, fog, sleet, sun; heat and cold; salt and fresh water environments.

The G war stuff is very logical in terms of resupply.

BTW - didn't you ask pretty much the same question a couple of times in the past? Maybe the old forum?

Someone else has asked the SHTF question twice that I can remember on the current forum.

LR55

[stanc]

Stan:

Roger what you are saying aside from the notion that ONE war means ONE set of physical conditions. Western Europe for example includes mountainous terrain, plains, forests, arid areas, farms, cities, villages, towns; snow, rain, fog, sleet, sun; heat and cold; salt and fresh water environments.

You're right, of course. I was thinking of possible wars in very limited geographical areas, where one type of terrain is predominant: Switzerland; Antarctica; jungles of Southeast Asia; etc.

I suppose I was overthinking the matter, though. :o

The G war stuff is very logical in terms of resupply.

BTW - didn't you ask pretty much the same question a couple of times in the past? Maybe the old forum?

I probably did. Don't recall for sure, but it sounds like something I'd do.

[Klem]

Well, given all the speculation that is pulling this thread all over the place I will state my all-rounder for most situations, within the Op's criteria.

A 'Recce/Recon Rifle'. AR15 in .223 with 16" Lilja and scope. Lower end of the scope's range down around the 2.5 times with upper end whatever the quality brand will give; (e.g. 10* for NF, or even 25* for March).

Not a CQB gun per-se but can do it in a pinch with a laser. CQB length barrels limit the velocity too much if targets present at 200M+. Can shoot with accuracy out to 500M in the fixed position, including night with a clip-on.

6.5Grendel too slow and niche a calibre (6.5G not included in the military re-supply machine). As for the Grendel's extra 25% effective range than .223. More likely targets will present at less than 500M, than more. And if more than 500M hopefully you can approach to at least 500M while in cover-from-view. Hopefully we are also talking about a military community type situation where there are heavier weapons around you to influence the outcome.

...That's of course if a Phased Plasma Rifle is out of the question and it's a, "Hey, just what you see, Pal!" situation.

[cory]

...6.5Grendel too slow and niche a calibre (6.5G not included in the military re-supply machine). As for the Grendel's extra 25% effective range than .223. More likely targets will present at less than 500M, than more. And if more than 500M hopefully you can approach to at least 500M while in cover-from-view. Hopefully we are also talking about a military community type situation where there are heavier weapons around you to influence the outcome...

Sharpshooters in the American militia played a significant role in the revolutionary war with their ability to take precision shots at long distance (this is relative to their time). I wouldn't completely count out the Grendel. However, you're completely right in that resupply could proof a significant problem.

[Drift]

Well you said "war" not just a battle or to two so... Between the founding of the Roman Republic (509BC) and about 1853 I would pick a rifle that could be made, loaded and serviced with available tools; so the Fergeson rifle for the first 2000 or so years of rifle warfare.. Then probably around 1853 the pattern 53 Engfield with the new percussion cap. Switching in around 1874 I would start sloshing my enemy with a Martini. Then on to a Swedish Mauser in 1894. Around 1936 I would switch to semi auto- some version of the M1 Garand /M14/M1a; and use it till today.
If I have to pick some version of the AR platform I guess it would be a Dawoo K1 in 5.56.
I will point out that I know of no war won,-or lost since by the employment of the AR series of rifle by that rifle . But Engfields, Martinis and Mausers have all won or lost wars.

[rabiddawg]

I wouldn't completely count out the Grendel. However, you're completely right in that resupply could proof a significant problem.

Im gonna roll with mygrendel til I run out of ammo. Then I will switch out the barrel&bolt to 223 and keep rockin

[ahillock]

I think the 6.5 Grendel is a great all around type rifle for a SHTF/EOTWAWKI type scenario. Of course, 6.5 Grendel ammo isn't as popular as say 5.56 or 7.62 NATO, but if you already have your stash of ammo, that wouldn't matter. Accurate enough to reach out and touch someone. Enough energy to do the job on most targets. Shorter barrel 14.5" or 16" and you could use it in an urban/cqc type scenario with the right ammo. Light system (rifle + ammo) so if you need to be on the move, you won't be wasting excess energy carrying your weapon system.

[stanc]

Since the OP never saw fit to elaborate or answer follow-on questions, I'll go with the following choices.

To equip an infantry squad:

- Squad Marksman Rifle (6.5 Grendel)
- Infantry Carbine (6.5 Grendel)
- Infantry Automatic Rifle (6.5 Grendel)