New Marine Corps weapon to replace SAW

[stanc]

Combined with fire discipline, and aimed controlled bursts on target indicators, the high sectional density bullets would make certain mud walls into only "concealment", while they are in fact "cover" with 5.56.

That's something I've wondered about for quite awhile. The mud walls I have seen in Afghan combat videos look rather thick for 6.5mm bullets to defeat. Another test that should be done?

When he started feeding from his Camelbak, he had used up many of the bags on his fighting load already by praying and spraying. I would see this a lot when an M60, SAW, or 240 gunner that was tired from carrying all the weight finally got a chance to return fire.

Some things never change. When my buddy was a 60 gunner in RVN, he would fire up his ammo on contact. However, he enjoyed shooting, so any excuse to burn large quantities of gunpowder was welcome.

And in contrast to the troops in this video, when he was a rifleman he always took a copious amount of grenades on patrol, usually stuffing his trousers cargo pockets with as many frags as they would hold. It made walking a bit of a chore, but he loved using grenades in a fight.

[pinzgauer]

I'll admit even after watching both parts of the video that I could not tell what their strategy was, who they were shooting at, where they were emplaced, any of that.

Which makes me wonder if they just did not know, thus the spray and pray.

Yeah, I found that enlightening. While not one of the P-Mag fans you note, I think I was one who questioned if such mag tossing actually occurs.

You are not alone, I've heard others question the same. I've never been in combat, so just do not know. I'm not anti P-Mag, just don't think they are a panacea. And I'm starting to see some serious shooters back off of using them due to fit issues in lowers and web gear. I will admit that pmags do have a consistency that is not present in some metal mags.

[stanc]

I'll admit even after watching both parts of the video that I could not tell what their strategy was, who they were shooting at, where they were emplaced, any of that.

Which makes me wonder if they just did not know, thus the spray and pray.

It looked to me as if they didn't have a fix on the location of the shooter(s), so the machine gunner was hosing down the entire area in an attempt to either:

a. Discourage the enemy from continued shooting; or
b. Get a lucky hit.

But, the SAW gunner had his head up and was putting his rounds where he wanted them to go.

It was two riflemen who were doing real "spray n pray" by holding their carbines above the wall while keeping their heads down; who knows where their bullets went...

[adamjp]

In my team the gunner would have got a boot up the arse for working that way. He gave away his position when it was unecessary, he wasted alot of ammunition for no good effect as he clearly had no idea where the fire was coming from. Doctrine in the Australian Army is pretty conservative on the use of the gun. It is the primary firepower of the section and is only used when necessary as it has a distinctive signature that enemy focus on to destroy your team. Disable the gun and the riflemen are relatively easy to roll up.

I will pick fault with the Platoon Commander (the LT) who was within booting range and he didn't seem to do much to control and direct the fire of his troops. The section did nothing with his bursts; no supress to fix the enemy, no move to engage (or disengage), no directing of supporting weapons, no using the supressing fire to observe and direct. If there had been some capable RPG gunners in the area they would have all got alot dirtier.

I won't pick fault with the gunners gaffe when reloading as in the heat of the moment it is easy enough to do.

I'm not sure how having a HBAR magazine fed supporting gun would have made any real difference in the action on the video. The issue was not the gun, but the control of the gunner. Instead of empty link bags there would have been a bunch of empty large M16 magazines. At least the link bags compress somewhat when empty.

STANC - As you say, the 5.56 won't punch through those walls, a 7.62 will punch through a mud brick wall (like the one the Australians are using for cover), but some Afghan walls are actually stacked rock covered in mud and the 7.62 won't go through or seriously demolish them. RPGs tend to pull them apart though.

[LRRPF52]

After watching it again, it does appear that the SAW gunner was getting some direction from the guys to his right. I didn't see anyone with glass spotting for him. His bursts were still way too long. That barrel must have been toasted.

In the US system, the Platoon Leader (which we have no evidence of this being a Platoon-sized element in contact) should have no reason to tell a Squad Leader to tell his Team Leader to get in the SAW gunner's business. The Fire Team leader and Squad Leader will be doing that, at least in every Light Infantry or Airborne unit that I was in. I'm suspecting this was a Squad-sized + element, with Afghan Army augmentees, as you can see one of the ANA with an AK shooting in the enemy direction.

[adamjp]

After watching it again, it does appear that the SAW gunner was getting some direction from the guys to his right. I didn't see anyone with glass spotting for him. His bursts were still way too long. That barrel must have been toasted.

In the US system, the Platoon Leader (which we have no evidence of this being a Platoon-sized element in contact) should have no reason to tell a Squad Leader to tell his Team Leader to get in the SAW gunner's business. The Fire Team leader and Squad Leader will be doing that, at least in every Light Infantry or Airborne unit that I was in. I'm suspecting this was a Squad-sized + element, with Afghan Army augmentees, as you can see one of the ANA with an AK shooting in the enemy direction.

I'm basing my Platoon sized unit on quotes like 'Who needs the Mag? The LT." A magazine is then tossed to the gent one to the left of the gunner.

I agree that the section and team leaders are the ones to take charge, but in the absence of them doing so I never saw any problem with getting involved, both as a Junior NCO where it was my job and a Junior Officer (yes I joined the dark side of the force ) where I expected my NCOs to do that.

I counted at least three ANA soldiers there over the span of the two videos.

I agree with STANC, general fire direction was being given, but they had no precise location to fire at. Too many of the gun rounds went out undirected during undisciplined popup and fire (no movement). One enemy with a scoped rifle (designated marksman equivalent) could have made the gunners day (and tour) much shorter as he was exposed for up to 15 seconds at a time.

There is something to think about.

[LRRPF52]

I watched the Part 2 video. That is the wrong answer that the LT needed ammo after that engagement. He's the last person in the Platoon that should be firing at the enemy. That he needed mags to be re-distributed to him is something I've never seen or considered possible, unless you had been overrun multiple times in the defense.

You also get a sense for how ungainly the SAW is, and how all that armor weighs the guys down so maneuverability is no longer your bread and butter as a Light Infantry unit. These guys are 10th Mountain, but I don't know what brigade or battalion.

[adamjp]

I watched the Part 2 video. That is the wrong answer that the LT needed ammo after that engagement. He's the last person in the Platoon that should be firing at the enemy. That he needed mags to be re-distributed to him is something I've never seen or considered possible, unless you had been overrun multiple times in the defense.

You also get a sense for how ungainly the SAW is, and how all that armor weighs the guys down so maneuverability is no longer your bread and butter as a Light Infantry unit. These guys are 10th Mountain, but I don't know what brigade or battalion.

I agree. Even as a section commander I always found I had more things to do with my time than shoot at people. Usually connected to the C2 role you now find yourself in. It is quite possible that he handed off one of his full mags to a soldier in exchange for an empty. I've done that myself often enough.

The armour is ungainly, and slows you down alot. Thing is it does keep casualties down and I suppose someone worked out that the tradeoff is worthwhile. It is hell on water consumption and I suspect there has been an increase in lower leg/foot injuries due to the extra weight being carried.

[LRRPF52]

These guys have different armor carriers than we did in OIF1. We had Interceptor, which is a horrible vest for dismounted troops. You always would get throat-checked when you sat down too quickly. This was before the side plates.

There is much better armor available and has been for some time, even with conventional SAAPI plate and soft armor arrangement. The body armor industry is rigged though, just like small arms. Too many well-entrenched players who have paid their dues in lobbyists, so if something new comes along, they want a share in manufacturing, or else your NIJ Cert will get pulled if you ever had one in the 1st place.

A heavy-laden dismounted infantry unit is too lightly-armed to carry the fight, too heavy to run, making it a fun target for Ahmed and his brousins, running around in their tennis shoes, man dresses, and AK chest harnesses.

[JASmith]

This most recent part of the thread, including the discussion of probable leadership failures, seems to point to a factor not covered as well as it should be when we discuss alternative calibers and weapons. A smaller weapon load-out motivates more fire-discipline at the expense for reduced margin when copious shooting is really needed.

The comments from folks with the right experience tell us that the fire-discipline, and likely leadership at the command level of this small unit, was much less than ideal. The soldiers used a lot more ammunition than what would be considered ideal for this type of engagement.

Further, the most recent observation by adamjp and, I think, LRRPF52 and in other threads tell us that the weight and heat of the armor make a significant impact on the soldier's maneuverability.

There are trades in about every equipping decision, but it seems these two might be a factor in how a light infantry unit should be equipped.

Take ammunition weight, for example, more rounds per unit mass helps offset some deficiency in fire-discipline, but there is a limit. Think of the debates as we moved from single-shot rifles to repeaters. There was a fair bit of consternation about ammunition wastage, but history overran the detractors and we have high rate of fire rifles. How could, or should, this logic be extended to the LMG?

Suppose, for example, the individual weapon were something like the 6.25X25 CBJ. This cartridge can display an effective range approaching 200 meters and suppressive fire somewhat beyond that. How would the argument for a 6.5X39 Grendel LMG change in response?

[LRRPF52]

At the end of the day, you're fighting the long-term procurement system, which is driven by things not related to real-world performance. Joe gets stuck with the garbage, which he is required to be handicapped with, and Personal Protective Equipment prevents a positive engagement.

I think the future lies in robotics that can ignore traditional avenues of approach and rough terrain, relegating wheeled-vehicle warfare into history along with mass troop formations on open field, while reviving the maneuverability and force projection of cavalry. Small arms will be composed of miniguns, guided missiles, and other smart weapons mounted to the robot frames, and robot logisitics will be the huge achilles heel, although villagers will tremble with the incoming stampedes of mechanical hordes and their thunder weapons.

[JASmith]

...I think the future lies in robotics ...

Sadly, too many of our bean-counting procurement folks are thinking along just those lines.

Robotics can easily be taken too far. We can easily lose the connection between use of force and winning hearts and minds of those in conflict.

We may have already crossed that line in our current conflict.

[LRRPF52]

I'm thinking of manned robots like Mech Warrior, but politicians will jump at the chance to go the way of unmanned ground mobility walkers. The components for the technology are there, but the restraints on power sources will limit combat radius, even though we could have indefinite combat radius with advanced motors using electronic controls of rare earth magnets.

I just imagine being able to run over terrain like that in Afghanistan, with integrated thermal/IR surround vision, with active camouflage, hunting down man-dress wearers where they sleep.

[JASmith]

Where is the classic and modern tribal warfare in that?

In other words, how will this help change behavior in other ways than making the "bad guys" dead?

[LRRPF52]

Right now, they're not too afraid of engaging dismounts, and consider it fun. With robotic creatures piloted by evil infidels that prefer to hunt at night, with no terrain restrictions, they would start to fear. Fear is a great deterrent, especially in a populace who traditionally looks forward to engaging invaders in battle. Less death is required with the night-stalking mech bots.

And the main Afghan ring road can be fully secured so that Afghan heroin will freely flow to the European marketplace, providing the necessary revenue for banks to stay afloat. 2007 was an $80 billion year for them, and the UNODC and an official with the IMF openly stated they are bailing out banks with the revenues. I'd rather our guys do it in air-conditioned mech bot cockpits, than running around playing silly games with goat rapers in the hills...especially considering the grotesque weight of the SAW.

Miniguns on your robo arms, with Javelin magazines on your back would make me much happier, than seeing good men run ragged with some BS armor on, carrying crappy machineguns forced onto them by a foreign company who buys their contracts with political maneuvering, rather than the merits of the products.

It would also be cool to have indirect fire tubes on your backs, with linked targeting systems between the robo warriors. Top the warhead array off with thermobaric charges, and we have a great recipe for vaporizing mud huts like it's cool, without ever having to call in CAS.