Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4

[stanc]

Many years ago I got the opportunity to use a L85A1 in some 'CQB' live fire. It sucked immensely.

Changing a magazine required three arms...

That's curious. Perhaps there was something wrong with that particular rifle?

Mag changes don't appear to be a problem in any of the videos I've watched.

For example, 0:25-0:35 in the below video:

[LR1955]

Stan:

That was 25 years ago or maybe even 30. A Brit Infantry Battalion was on post and and for some reason I was with them for some CQB stuff in an old tire house. They handed me one of those bullpups and gave me a block of instruction and I cleared a couple of 'rooms'. Not used to one? Maybe but I also watched them use their own weapons and due to the design, they were not as fast or as precise as our guys using standard M-16A2's with iron sights.

They really had problems when they tried to qualify on one of the Train Fire ranges. A lot of the scopes on their rifles were basically inoperable and the others fogged up badly. Prone was difficult but not impossible.

LR55

[VASCAR2]

I have a Tavor SAR and I like it in and around vehicles. The Tavor does swing and handle differently but for me it’s ergos are fine. I have a Geissele Super Sabra trigger pack in mine and is a very good trigger. My Tavor SAR seems to shoot 55 grain and 69 grain bullets better than 62 grain FMJ and 75-77 grain match bullets even though it has a 1-7 twist barrel.

The Tavor has a brass defector and can be configured with right or left eject. Being right handed my Tavor ejects to the right but I have no trouble shooting weak side drills. If the Tavor was issued to a new recruit who had no firearms experience I think they could learn to shoot the Tavor quickly and effectively.

The Tavor design being a long stroke gas piston doesn’t have the accuracy of the M-16 but is definitely adequate. My biggest complaint about the Tavor SAR is the weight but that is the price you pay with the bullpup. I don’t notice the weight while shooting because the weight is next to the shoulder. I like the way the Tavor handles in CQB but I’m not sure I could be any faster on a shot timer than with an AR-15 style rifle.

The safety/selector is basically the same as an AR-15 and I like the charging handle and mag location/release. The different optic height over bore is a training issue and is not a factor for me. I think the Tavor would make a good LE patrol carbine. For troops working out of APC’s or aircraft I think Bullpups have their advantages in confined spaces.

For a general issue rifle I think the AR-15 is hard to beat. I can see why special forces would want an M-4 over a Tavor/AUG/SA80.

[montana]

The AR is far Superior to the Aug or any other bull pup. Multi gun and 3 gun has proven which rifles are dominant. Speed, ergonomics, accuracy, recoil control and reliability, nothing is better than the AR Stoner rifle system.

[A5BLASTER]

So who makes the best 1/2 ton truck? Chevy or Ford?

[montana]

So who makes the best 1/2 ton truck? Chevy or Ford?

Ford

[stanc]

Stan, this is just me being a smartass, but methinks it'd be rather difficult to design a bullpup without the drawbacks of a bullpup...

And this is me giving a smartass response: Well, duh. If it were easy, somebody would already have done it.

[stanc]

The AR is far Superior to the Aug or any other bull pup. Multi gun and 3 gun has proven which rifles are dominant. Speed, ergonomics, accuracy, recoil control and reliability, nothing is better than the AR Stoner rifle system.

AR15? Yech. Make mine M14 !!!

[Klem]

AR15? Yech. Make mine M14 !!!

Ah yes, the 'taitsa pask' - The shortest serving standard issue rifle in US history. Have you ever tried putting an optic on one? If the answer is 'No' you are living in a previous century.

I have an old 1921 Lee Enfield 303, a venerable weapon for another time.

[stanc]

The shortest serving standard issue rifle in US history. Have you ever tried putting an optic on one? If the answer is 'No' you are living in a previous century.

Hey, I willingly admit I'm old school. I prefer wood and steel over plastic and aluminum. I also think .30 caliber is king.

This M1A was my all-time favorite rifle. I loved the fit, feel, and handling. Better than any other military rifle I've fired.

[Gusmeister]

The AR is far Superior to the Aug or any other bull pup. Multi gun and 3 gun has proven which rifles are dominant. Speed, ergonomics, accuracy, recoil control and reliability, nothing is better than the AR Stoner rifle system.

In classes and intensive training the guns start to pick themselves out. I have cooked my "training" Glock 17 dozens of time. A few thousand round days and many 500 round days. Many times the slide was hot enough to cook eggs on. But, if you swap the springs out every 5-10,000 rounds with an occasional clean/lube then it keeps running. There are many very good handguns out there but precious few that will take this abuse.

In classes and intensive training the rifles start to pick themselves out. Many of us shoot 1,000 round days and quality AR's put up with it over and over. That is if they are not filthy and well lubed. We typically see fewer problems with good AR's than with AK's. And if an AR goes down it is typically a quick easy fix. So I agree with Montana. Nothing against the other platforms and cartridges (love the Tavor, M14 and 308) but when you mix all the needs in and add a measure of abuse it's mighty hard to replace the AR platform and it's 60 years of refinement.

[n9nwo]

Hey, I willingly admit I'm old school. I prefer wood and steel over plastic and aluminum. I also think .30 caliber is king.

This M1A was my all-time favorite rifle. I loved the fit, feel, and handling. Better than any other military rifle I've fired.

It was the rifle that WW2 should of had. Had the M1 been with less wood and a BAR magazine it would have the perfect rifle for that war.

[Klem]

I also think .30 caliber is king.

Are you aware that the Sporting Rifle Match at Raton has a scoresheet with a box to tick for those shooting 308. They end up shooting amongst themselves because 308 is officially recognised as not as accurate as 6.5.

6.5 Grendel...21st Century.
308 and M14...20th Century.

Sticking doggedly to the belief that something is the best when clearly it is not is almost a metaphor, don't you think?

[NugginFutz]

Are you aware that the Sporting Rifle Match at Raton has a scoresheet with a box to tick for those shooting 308. They end up shooting amongst themselves because 308 is officially recognised as not as accurate as 6.5.

6.5 Grendel...21st Century.
308 and M14...20th Century.

Sticking doggedly to the belief that something is the best when clearly it is not is almost a metaphor, don't you think?

Don't trouble me with the facts, Klem. I've already made up my mind!

[stanc]

6.5 Grendel...21st Century.
308 and M14...20th Century.

LOL. I see you left out the M16/AR15, since it would be a bit awkward in your 21st Century/20th Century comparison.

Don't trouble me with the facts, Klem. I've already made up my mind!

I'm not saying that .308 WIN/7.62 NATO is the best rifle cartridge ever. Just that I'm a traditionalist, and like .30 caliber better than any other.

I grew up watching World War II and Korean War movies. The first military rifles I shot were the M1 carbine, M1 Garand, and M1941 Johnson.

And my high school ROTC unit had a M1919A6 LMG, which I thought was awesome!

As a result of all that, calibers smaller than .30 have always seemed a little...wrong.