New Cartridge Developments and Implications for Dismounted Infantry Soldiers

[Tony Williams]

Jordan reportedly plans to equip some of the Royal Guards with the 6.8 LWRC PSD, and acquired a license to make that model and a longer-barrel carbine version. Don't know why they'd want to go to the expense of setting up for local manufacture if they only wanted a few guns for VIP protection. OTOH, it's difficult to imagine them switching the entire military from 5.56 to 6.8 SPC. Time will tell.

Jordan is steadily building up their arms and ammunition industry, and experimenting with new calibres. There's a whole series of (so far experimental) pistol rounds from .22 to .40 calibre in the JAWS Micro-Mag range, all based on a .45 Auto case diameter: I have a set of them in my collection.

[RangerRick]

I can't speak for the current conflicts, but it's happened to me and about every other Infantry leader I know at one time or another, both in training and on operations. It's not incompetence, just operational friction.

When your supply base is at a distance, and aviation assets are scarce, or a higher priority somewhere else, you are just going to get mismatches sometimes. You try to project what your ammo burn is going to be but you can't really know that in advance.

RR

[stanc]

We haven't even really looked at the potential of the Grendel in the CQB to 300m range as far as dedicated lightweight projectile loads go. I'll bet that the 100gr NBT out of the Grendel also makes a great 400m pill too.

I'm wondering if the 110gr T3 that John wants might be too heavy. It looks to me as if it'd be nearly as long, and use up almost as much powder volume, as the 120gr GMX. That would adversely impact muzzle velocity, perhaps negating the BC advantage over, say, a 100gr T3?

[stanc]

...after seven years it's become very clear that nobody else is willing and able to do informal testing. It looks like I'm going to have to come out of retirement and do it myself...

Ya know, I was very seriously planning to do that. It always bothered me that I was unable to include some terminal effects and other testing in my 2005 and 2009 Special Weapons articles comparing 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC for military use.

As a result, for the last week or so I've been looking into buying an M4-type carbine, along with 6.5 and 6.8 uppers, with the intention of doing such tests. I got a bit of a reality check when I saw the (estimated) price tag.

Carbine ---- $1000
6.5 upper --- $800
6.8 upper --- $800
ACOG (2) -- $2500
Perma-Gel -- $700

And as if that wasn't bad enough, I don't even like AR-15s! Owned two of them; sold 'em both. So, why the heck am I considering buying another one (plus two uppers!)?

My two all-time favorite long guns were my M1 carbine and my M1A rifle w/E2 stock.

Maybe one of those is what I should be looking at buying.

[warped]

Stan, do not just buy a whole rifle, save some money and get the Templar MCWS, you can then only buy an extra bbls, bolt, mags and gas blocks for each caliber change

[LRRPF52]

I have the MGI tool-less Quick-Barrel Change system, so all I need are the barrel/bolt combos, and mags. It also lets me keep all the other variables the same from test-to-test. I already have the 16" Grendel set-up, with plenty of mags and ammunition components. I can help out if you want, or you can send me a 6.8 barrel/bolt combo. Let's PM. Basically, the only costs you would need to cover for the terminal tests would be the 6.8 items, and I could even ship you what you need. I've seen 6.8 barrel/bolt combos from under $300. PM me if you're seriously planning on doing this.

[stanc]

I was very serious about it. Then I remembered my long dislike for AR-15s. That would still remain, even though the $$$ outlay could be slashed with the MGI and MCWS systems.

There's also the $700 for three Perma-Gel blocks. Since that would allow only one shot each of TSX, SMK and FMJ in both calibers, it could (and would) be rightfully criticized as a not statistically valid sample size, and many would object that ordnance gelatin wasn't used.

Plus, who knows when -- or if -- the Wolf 6.5 FMJ ammo will get here. That's the main item of interest to me, personally. There have been gel tests of TSX and SMK loads posted on the web, and one of 6.8 FMJ factory ammo. The only one missing is a factory 6.5 FMJ. (Well, also John's hoped for T3 load, too. )

I deeply and sincerely appreciate your willingness to help, but I think this is one project I need to abort before it goes further.

[LRRPF52]

Maybe we should start an R&D fund. Gel blocks would become a lot less expensive if we absorbed the costs together.

5 members contributing $25 per month = $750 after a 6 month period.

10 members contributing $25 per month = $750 after a 3 month period

I'm down for it. I know of at least 4 people on the forum who I could trust with the professional management of the funds. I would really like to do this anyway for a polymer magazine project for the Grendel. I just saw the Troy Battle mags, and they look like they might be able to be modified to work with the Grendel. We'll see.

Many of us have been interested in the Gel tests, so I'm betting that we could spare the $25 per month to go to that cause. It could also go towards projectiles and supporting equipment, and several of us would volunteer our time anyways to conducting the tests.

[bwaites]

I'd contribute.

[stanc]

Wow...I go away for a few hours, leave the ball on the one-yard line, only to return and find you guys have moved it 50 yards down the field!

When I was remarking about the cost of Perma-Gel blocks, it wasn't meant to solicit donations. I can afford the money, but it's just that after thinking about it, I don't see that it'd contribute any more knowledge than is already available online.

Gel tests of 6.8 SPC factory ammo with FMJ, TSX and SMK bullets can be seen at: http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...ed-info-photos

Gel test of 6.5 Grendel factory TSX load is available at: http://www.alexanderarms.com/item/12...ammunition.htm

Or did you have something else in mind?

BTW, what do gel tests have to do with polymer magazines?

[bwaites]

Wow...I go away for a few hours, leave the ball on the one-yard line, only to return and find you guys have moved it 50 yards down the field!

When I was remarking about the cost of Perma-Gel blocks, it wasn't meant to solicit donations. I can afford the money, but it's just that after thinking about it, I don't see that it'd contribute any more knowledge than is already available online.

Gel tests of 6.8 SPC factory ammo with FMJ, TSX and SMK bullets can be seen at: http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...ed-info-photos

Gel test of 6.5 Grendel factory TSX load is available at: http://www.alexanderarms.com/item/12...ammunition.htm

Or did you have something else in mind?

BTW, what do gel tests have to do with polymer magazines?

I think he just means that if we had an R&D fund and program there are various projects which we might be able to help with.

I think its an outstanding idea, myself. A forum that actually pushes the envelope as a group of like minded individuals.

We have plenty of weapons to do this kind of project without having to buy more SOLELY to complete it. (Though buying more rifles is never a bad thing!)

I'm betting that we can do lots of projects that any one of us couldn't, using the knowledge of those here to help design, develop, and fund the research!

[LRRPF52]

Most people don't know that the Grumman F-14 Tomcat was taken from a concept to flight within 14 months. Imagine all the engineering, coordination, parts sourcing, human resources management, assembly line construction, and integration that had to come together to put that masterpiece (minus the Pratt & Whitney TF30 engines) into the air.

I figure a few like-minded hobbyists with the information-exchange capacity we have could at least pull off a few minor projects related to some simple fire-stick technologies. Most of the sub-components are available already, when you think about springs, pins, and so forth. CNC machining is a well-honed field of manufacture, as is rapid-prototyping. They just take money that the common individual can't spare, but collectively as a team of mad enthusiasts...well, a team of space-age scientists could get a run for their money.

[stanc]

I think he just means that if we had an R&D fund and program there are various projects which we might be able to help with.

I think its an outstanding idea, myself. A forum that actually pushes the envelope as a group of like minded individuals.

I'm betting that we can do lots of projects that any one of us couldn't, using the knowledge of those here to help design, develop, and fund the research!

It is indeed an intriguing idea, but...who would decide what projects get supported by this R&D fund?

[bwaites]

We'd have to figure out a plan, maybe define a board to hear ideas and another board to determine protocols for the experiment, though some members might be on both boards.

It's workable, but would take some evaluation and planning.

[RangerRick]

Gel test of 6.5 Grendel factory TSX load is available at: http://www.alexanderarms.com/item/12...ammunition.htm

That thing tumbled big time. It looks like a boat propeller going through water.