New Cartridge Developments and Implications for Dismounted Infantry Soldiers

[JASmith]

...They just take money that the common individual can't spare, but collectively as a team of mad enthusiasts...well, a team of space-age scientists could get a run for their money.

Way too true -- especially if there's a couple of them among the mad enthusiasts!

[JASmith]

We'd have to figure out a plan, maybe define a board to hear ideas and another board to determine protocols for the experiment, though some members might be on both boards.

It's workable, but would take some evaluation and planning.

Bill,

You're on the money with the need to have a board!

The downside is that we might even learn why things take so darned long in today's R&D world!

Cheers!

[LRRPF52]

Bill,

You're on the money with the need to have a board!

The downside is that we might even learn why things take so darned long in today's R&D world!

Cheers!

Roger that. Some ideas that come to mind are appointing a trustee, as well as deciding between pure democratic mobority rules, versus a representative arrangement where certain protocols are adhered to and agreed to by contributors. (To ensure that funds are used for their original intent) Maybe it would be a good idea to start with something small and simple as a proof-of-concept, and see how it develops.

I have observed this concept with some of the organizations I deal with a lot, mainly the Active Military Reserve Finnish Sniper's Guilds. They have annual dues for members, and have accumulated quite a significant amount of funding, to the point where they are making major decisions on range complexes that are currently being built with electronically-programmed steel target systems, possible weapons development, equipment procurement, and so forth. During their meetings, they vote on budgetary decisions together, in addition to planning competitions, organizing regular training events, and so forth.

Back in the 1920's and 1930's, the Women volunteers for the Reserve system would sell coffee and Pulla (a delicious Finnish pastry) to raise money for the re-barreling of M91 Mosin Nagants for the Finnish Civil Guard.

In addition to these home-grown financing techniques, they also had a very active Reserve Training System back then, which largely contributed to the David-vs.-Goliath victories against the Red Army when Stalin invaded Finland in the winter of 1939. After about 3 months, the Finns had totally wiped out 10 Soviet Divisions (250,000+ soldiers killed) in what is known as the Talvisota, or Winter War. The point is there is merit to these ideas that have been proven historically. After WWII, The Soviets demanded that this Finnish Reserve System be totally dismantled and banned, as they realized how instrumental it was in their defeat.

With a good After-Action Review system, a little maturity on our parts, and the mad scientists, I think that we could surprise ourselves. Here are some Grendel-specific components that I have seen come up frequently over the past few years:

* Magazines
* Bolts
* Ammunition & components, mainly brass & Grendel-specific bullets

I would propose tackling these areas with the following goals:

Develop a polymer or metal magazine that is optimized for the Grendel in that:

• More COAL can be achieved with said magazine
• Geometry of the magazine body is optimized for the Grendel cartridge working within existing AR15 receivers
• Quality control is set to meet certain standards to provide consistency, supporting reliability in the AR15 platform
• Capacity goal of 30rds for one of the magazine bodies, while keeping the magazine height as close to or at a standard 5.56 mag height

I recently noticed that Magpul has been making Smith & Wesson-specific PMAG's for the M&P series of AR15's, which has the M&P logo on the mag body. That required a whole new set of injection-molding plates, which are not cheap. There are several industry experts already making great products, so even if we are able to finance the prototyping and beta-testing, it will make it much easier to hand off production to those with proven expertise when necessary.

I think the magazine issue is important since CProducts is no longer in business, and there are questions about how the residue of that company will continue. Even though I have not had issues with any of my CProducts mags yet, I think we need to have a Grendel community-backed program with this, so there is more vested interest in ensuring that a quality magazine system is brought to market.

Maybe we could simply call it...The Grendel Guild

[stanc]

That thing tumbled big time. It looks like a boat propeller going through water.

At the risk of nitpicking, the TSX doesn't tumble. It expands, forming four petals.

Your analogy is quite accurate, though. The petals do behave just like a propeller going through water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQx2eHpDVnE

[stanc]

Roger that. Some ideas that come to mind are appointing a trustee, as well as deciding between pure democratic mobority rules, versus a representative arrangement where certain protocols are adhered to and agreed to by contributors. (To ensure that funds are used for their original intent) Maybe it would be a good idea to start with something small and simple as a proof-of-concept, and see how it develops.

I'd say that's wise. IMO, establishing a vague "R&D fund" that nobody knows what the $$$ will be used for, is unlikely to attract many backers. Note that so far only two members expressed a willingness to donate money.

From what I've see over the years, fundraising works best when there are clear goals. It also helps if the projects are recognized as achieveable, such as the examples of the Finns contributing money to buy new equipment.

With a good After-Action Review system, a little maturity on our parts, and the mad scientists, I think that we could surprise ourselves. Here are some Grendel-specific components that I have seen come up frequently over the past few years:

* Magazines
* Bolts
* Ammunition & components, mainly brass & Grendel-specific bullets

I'm sure every Grendel shooter would like to have better mags, and from more than one source. But, haven't bolts been pretty much fully developed? And there are three makers of ammo and brass, so what R&D effort would be needed in those areas?

I would propose tackling these areas with the following goals:

Develop a polymer or metal magazine that is optimized for the Grendel...

I think the magazine issue is important since CProducts is no longer in business, and there are questions about how the residue of that company will continue. Even though I have not had issues with any of my CProducts mags yet, I think we need to have a Grendel community-backed program with this, so there is more vested interest in ensuring that a quality magazine system is brought to market.

Maybe I'm wrong, but designing and prototyping a new polymer mag seems like it'd be neither a small project, nor a simple one (let alone low-cost). If it were easy, the polymer mag companies would have already done it.

And how would a new metal mag be any different than what currently exists? The limiting factor is the M16 mag well.

Maybe we could simply call it...The Grendel Guild

Cute. And fittingly, somewhat medieval.

[JASmith]

Reference polymer mags and other things needing prototyping: The field of stereolithography has moved forward a lot since I was first exposed to it 15-20 years ago. Parts can be built to effectively the dimensional tolerances I believe are needed for magazine prototyping for $-100-$200 each. Even less if someone has a machine and is willing to contribute labor and overhead.

[LRRPF52]

I think the polymer mag and AR magwell limitations can be dealt with using a mag body that gets wider outside the magwell, while allowing for higher capacity as well. A metal mag with the same approach could be another solution. Either way, it would be nice to have mags with a body that allowed longer COAL.

As far as brass and bullets go, the new Hornady brass seems to be going through some teething issues when it comes to fitting in certain chambers, and there is probably a little room to develop an optimized line of projectiles for the Grendel.

Stereolithography has come a long way, and is basically in the stages of shifting from just prototyping, to actually manufacturing parts using that technology, which will allow a whole new approach to layering of different materials, to take advantage of the benefits of certain compounds and their inherent properties.

[stanc]

I think the polymer mag and AR magwell limitations can be dealt with using a mag body that gets wider outside the magwell, while allowing for higher capacity as well.

Doesn't that typically result in a more complicated and costly mag?

A metal mag with the same approach could be another solution.

Perhaps SureFire should be talked to?

Either way, it would be nice to have mags with a body that allowed longer COAL.

The 6.8 guys like PRI mags for that reason. PRI mags have the two halves butt-welded together in front, whereas other designs overlap and spot weld. I wonder if PRI is too devoted to 6.8 SPC to consider making Grendel mags?

As far as brass and bullets go, the new Hornady brass seems to be going through some teething issues when it comes to fitting in certain chambers...

What R&D can 65grendel forum members do about that?

...and there is probably a little room to develop an optimized line of projectiles for the Grendel.

Yeah. IIRC, there are only two or three bullets that were designed specifically for 6.5 Grendel. Cartridge-specific 110gr TSX and 85gr TSX were made for 6.8 SPC; TSX's in those weights would also benefit 6.5 Grendel more than the 120gr TSX, which I think was created for higher-velocity rounds like .260 Remington.

[pinzgauer]

As far as brass and bullets go, the new Hornady brass seems to be going through some teething issues when it comes to fitting in certain chambers

Hmmm, only chambers from mfg's that chose to differ from the published standard. Which for a service rifle would be a non-issue. IE: super Tight chambers with minimal headspace are big problems for reliability. it would be addressed by now, except that the same mfg's then argue with folks who try to get it addressed. Looks like CSS is finally fixing barrels, but that whole saga is not a grendel cartridge issue, nor hornady brass. It's a mfg issue with a subset of mfg's.

[LRRPF52]

For the mags, I was thinking about going from the current width to a width more appropriate for the .444" base cartridge on some mags, but this could be determined quickly with a graph to see how much space would be needed, before going in the quad-stack direction. The quad-stack does offer the possibility of even more capacity than 30rds.

Magpul has also made a quad-stack mag, or at least applied for a patent for one.

[stanc]

I have the MGI tool-less Quick-Barrel Change system, so all I need are the barrel/bolt combos, and mags.

Did a little searching, and found this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WqacFmzP68

I thought, "Wow! That's exactly what I want!" I love the fast, easy takedown and assembly. Best of all, everything -- barrel, upper, lower -- fits into a briefcase for discreet transportation. Even though it's contrary to my dislike of the AR-15, I decided that was the way I wanted to go.

So, today I drove to the large indoor range that I knew (from a previous phone search) had a Kalifornia-legal, M4-clone made by Franklin Armory. Figured I'd buy a complete gun so as to have something to shoot while waiting for MGI upper receiver, extra barrels, and other parts.

Man, did I ever get a rude awakening. I discovered that I was unable to pull the bolt rearward even halfway, no matter how hard I pulled. Tried a Ruger Mini-30, with little more success. Even tried an old M1 carbine, and just barely managed to get the bolt all the way to the rear, but then couldn't hold it there long enough to press down the tiny lock button.

I hadn't realized just how much affect this darned MS has had. Always knew it was a problem, of course, but I always thought that I could still handle and shoot a rifle, just that it'd be a bit difficult. It turns out I was greatly underestimating the situation.

It looks like the only way I could get a round chambered in an AR-15 would be to place the butt on the floor and push down on the T-handle with my foot. But somehow I doubt that would go over very well with range safety officers and other shooters. LOL

There is an up side to this, however. Since I now know for certain that I won't be getting a Grendel AR, I can stop bugging John, Bill, and everybody else about the Wolf FMJ ammo.

[Variable]

Dang Stan, that really sucks to hear! Don't give up yet though, you can probably figure something out. It has taken you so long to finally get an AR, I'd hate for you to bail on it now!!!

Maybe something like a PRI "Gas buster" charging handle could give you more surface to grab at? They charge too much for them, but I've got at least five or six of them. They are my fave charging handles.

If all else fails, we'll make you a pulley system like they used to use on crossbows!!!

Don't stop pestering about the Wolf FMJ either, as you aren't the only one waiting!!!LOL

[RangerRick]

Don't give up hope Stan! One thing about the AR charging handle is that it is two sided. You can make a string to loop around your neck or hold in your teeth and then use your head to pull back on the handle. Or conversely, hold your head still and push the rifle away from you to extend the handle.

If your rifle functions well you only have to do it once during a shooting session.

There isn't much room below the charging handle for a string, but a wire loop might work, or some kind of forked "fingers" to go over the end of the handle.

Another good way is to shoot with a buddy who will do those little things for you when you need a hand.

That's tough for independent old SOB's like us, but you'd be surprised how many guys will be willing to help out.

You could also use it as a teaching opportunity. Find a young kid who wants to learn to shoot and be their coach. In return the kid can help out with stuff like that. We have to pass on the skills to the next generation.

Since I only have one arm, I have to learn to adapt and overcome all kinds of stuff like that. It's overwhelming at first, but after awhile it's second nature.

To load an automatic pistol, I have to stand sideways a the range and put the grip of the pistol on my hip to pull the slide back while keeping it pointed downrange.

About the only thing I haven't figured how to do is to get those damn headphones on one handed. I used ear plugs for years, but the noise canceling ear protectors are great at the range.

Trust me, everyone at the range will be willing to help if you need it. The hard part is asking.

Figure out a technique and practice at home. Then when you get to the range you won't get so frustrated.

With a bolt gun I can open the bolt same as an AR, by putting the butt on a hip from a table or against my chest prone.

If I can do it with one arm, you can do it with two weak arms!

Rick

[JASmith]

Stan,

I know that suggesting something like the TC single-shot is blasphemy on a site like this. On the other hand, the break-action is a lot easier to manipulate. Second, all of the ballistic testing you've suggested can be done with a single-shot firearm.

The added bonus is that the first cost is generally less than that of an AR-15. Even when you add the cost of 4 or 5 barrels, you'll likely have spent less than buying the first piston machine.

Cheers!
Joe

[LRRPF52]

Stan,

Another simple solution to your MS for operating the charge handle of any auto-loading rifle is to have a wristband with loop of 550 cord or webbing sewn to it. You could also incorporate this into gloves, so that you just hook the webbing onto the charge handle, and use your elbow, hip and shoulder mechanics to operate the mechanism, if the pain and reduced function in your hands and fingers is the main limitation for you.

You can also have a PRI military big latch installed on a standard AR15 charge handle, which is smooth and won't snag on the webbing or 550 loop. I'm putting together a strengthened charge handle configured exactly like that for a friend of mine, after I Cerakote the handle in Sniper Grey, which has a smooth Teflon-like finish if I mix the hardener ratio to Cerakote a certain way. Anyway, I think there are more options for you than you think.

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=573

I would recommend a really lightweight AR with a quality pencil-weight barrel made by BCM or Daniel Defense. Using your support hand in the glove or wristband, you could basically charge the weapon in a hugging motion while turning the weapon over with your firing hand, placing the left side of the receiver up, keeping the muzzle downrange. Then hook the loop onto the charge handle latch, and "hug" the empty space between you and the rifle, applying force to the left with your right hand and arm(if you're right-handed), and force to the right with your left arm. The PRI Big Latch will allow the loop to slip off it once you hit the end of the travel of the mechanism, and the bolt carrier group and charge handle will slam forward, stripping a round off into the chamber.

Another option is to charge the AR15 like a pistol one-handed, off your belt or other snag spots that will help grab the charge handle latch. Gravity will work with you if you are standing, but RO's definitely will look at you cock-eyed if you don't explain your circumstances.

I also sew, and have been making gear since I was a kid, so let me know if I can help in that regard.

LRRPF52