PDWs...and other small arms.

[n9nwo]

Look at the Tavor X95 (SAR was the older model). It can be made into a PDW with a shorter barrel. Currently IWI has a 14" barrel in 300 BLK as well as a 9mm conversion kit. It is just a bit larger than most current PDW models on the market.

Nice thing is the Tavor is very modular.

[LRRPF52]

Tavor is too big for support troops who need to focus on their primary jobs without a magazine sticking out of the weapon.

A PDW needs to be able to be worn on a belt without being overly obtrusive and a snag hazard.

[cory]

If you're serious about doing this, then I think the P90 is about as small as can be accomplished while still retaining enough effectiveness Terminal/range.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a pistol seems to be useless until you go into a room and that POS saw jams or even if your M4 jams for that matter. I carry a pistol on a regular basis as a civilian. I've never needed to this date and odds are I'll never need it in the future (I certainly hope the need will never arise). However, if I ever need it and don't have it on me, I'll never need it again.

[BjornF16]

MP5 in 10mm?

[LRRPF52]

An improved 7.62x25 Tokarev, 9x25 Dillon, or 6.5 CBJ would fit the bill in that Magpul Folding Gun.

Much more projectile mass than 5.7x28, higher velocity, low recoil, effective range from 200-300m.

[stanc]

A PDW needs to be so compact, it can be worn on the belt and forgotten about...

Concur.

Any straight-walled pistol cartridge simply doesn't have the speed/projectile weight to do the job. Any legacy 20th Century pistol cartridge should be excluded on that basis alone...

Disagree. About 20 years ago I had some MagSafe 9x19 ammo that had 52gr and 60gr FMJ bullets w/muzzle velocities of ~2000 fps from a 4" barrel.

...in addition to the fact that they all have terrible effective ranges due to low mv and poor projectile shaping.

9x19 OAL is sufficient to permit a significant improvement in projectile shape:

When you look at things like the 7.62x25 and other small, bottle-necked cartridges, things start to shift towards rifle performance. 9x25 Dillon is another example of a pistol cartridge that can spit a decent weight projectile at 2000fps or more.

7.62x25 is interesting for its performance potential, and has OAL that would permit use of a spitzer projectile, but it is such a long cartridge that a double-stack magazine might be problematical for soldiers with smaller hands.





9x25 Dillon is also undesirably long. More importantly, it is significantly fatter than 9x19 and 7.62x25, which would adversely affect magazine capacity. Additionally, the cartridge OAL only allows use of very unstreamlined, stubby bullets.

Support MOS soldiers need a little box-shaped weapon that is unobtrusive, goes on their belt, and is out of the way throughout the day, but there if something goes horribly wrong (green on blue, Major Hassan type events, vehicle disabled outside the wire, etc.). We're talking something very small, but with a telescoping stock and flush magazine with a spare built into the frame. Something like the Magpul Folding Pocket Gun would be about perfect, in a bottle-necked higher velocity PDW cartridge.

I think the MagPul FPG is an intriguing concept, worth investigating for employment as a military PDW, although I do wonder if the design can be made "G.I.-proof."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enzlTEysYVU

We don't need pistols for most of the duty positions that carry pistols, because pistols are about worthless for pretty much everyone in the military except investigators and a few units in the SOF community, and the modern handgun/sidearm needs to be brought into the 21st Century as well, not stuck in the rut of the 20th Century.

I fully agree.

[stanc]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a pistol seems to be useless until you go into a room and that POS saw jams or even if your M4 jams for that matter. I carry a pistol on a regular basis as a civilian. I've never needed to this date and odds are I'll never need it in the future (I certainly hope the need will never arise). However, if I ever need it and don't have it on me, I'll never need it again.

As a civilian, you have that option. However, outside of SOF operators, very few soldiers are armed with both a rifle/carbine and a pistol.

[Lightning8]

As a civilian, you have that option. However, outside of SOF operators, very few soldiers are armed with both a rifle/carbine and a pistol.

Actually, we commonly requested dual carry with M4s and M9s for deploying units - these were ARNG units such as Combat Engineers.

[stanc]

An improved 7.62x25 Tokarev, 9x25 Dillon, or 6.5 CBJ would fit the bill in that Magpul Folding Gun.

Much more projectile mass than 5.7x28, higher velocity, low recoil, effective range from 200-300m.

7.62x25 Tokarev, loaded with a spitzer bullet, yes. (Assuming that the COAL allows grip dimensions viable for use by soldiers with smaller hands.)

6.5x25 CBJ (below) and 9x25 Dillon are incompatible with streamlined, spitzer bullets, so I question if effective range would be even 200 meters.

[stanc]

Actually, we commonly requested dual carry with M4s and M9s for deploying units - these were ARNG units such as Combat Engineers.

Interesting. Photos of US infantry soldiers carrying both are the exception, rather than the rule ( https://www.google.com/search?q=9x25...ZSuHM:&imgrc=_ ), and I don't recall ever seeing any combat videos showing that.

[LRRPF52]

If you ever get to hold a Glock 20SF or Glock 40, you will see that they reduced the frame size to accommodate smaller hands, unlike the original Glock 20 and Glock 21 (.45 ACP).

Drop in a barrel and you're in business with the 9x25 Dillion, although I would like to see a 6.5mm version of this.

Take that combo and put it in the Magul FGP, and you have an ideal PDW with a long, high capacity mag.

Do it in a modernized 7.62x25 or 6.5 CBJ, and you're done as far as the cartridge/weapon is concerned.

6.5x25 CBJ is effective out to anywhere from 200-400m, both of which exceed the capabilities of 5.7x28 and 4.6x30.

All these cartridges fit in small frame pistols. 6.5x25 CBJ is the only one that is addressing future armor defeat in excess of NATO CRISAT.

The others have the potential to do so with the same AP projectile approaches.

[cory]

An improved 7.62x25 Tokarev, 9x25 Dillon, or 6.5 CBJ would fit the bill in that Magpul Folding Gun.

Much more projectile mass than 5.7x28, higher velocity, low recoil, effective range from 200-300m.

The MFG isn't a PDW, it's a pistol with a buttstock in a covert case. I could do the same thing in a simpler design that would still ride in the drop holsters the military is accustomed to, you'd lose the cool covert aspect of it. Simply change the lower receiver of an existing pistol for one with a foldable buttstock built in.

As a civilian, you have that option. However, outside of SOF operators, very few soldiers are armed with both a rifle/carbine and a pistol.

What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in china. No troops are issued PDWs, but we're still here discussing it. We're talking about what should be, not what is.

[Lightning8]

I remember the days of 9x25 Dillon in IPSC - in Open class comped and red dot race guns. Muzzle blast was horrendous and noone wanted to be the Range Officer with that shooter. Tore up the steel targets in some cases. I remember discussions that no one was interested in a stock pistol in 9x25. For sure, it has velocity and penetration.

[Lightning8]

Interesting. Photos of US infantry soldiers carrying both are the exception, rather than the rule ( https://www.google.com/search?q=9x25...ZSuHM:&imgrc=_ ), and I don't recall ever seeing any combat videos showing that.

There are a lot of things in theater that are not filmed. Not a lot of media when out on road clearing operations with the Combat Engineers and our Soldiers were too busy to be filming themselves. There are not enough M9s (or other pistols) for every Soldier/Marine to dual carry but it was much more common that you indicated. Frankly, only a fraction of deployed Soldiers/Marines deployed in theater went outside the wire so if DOD wanted all those outside wire could have dual carried. At some point, you have to make the "weight" question of do I want to carry pistol, holster, extra mags, etc. or does rifle ammo, radio, etc. take priority.

[stanc]

There are a lot of things in theater that are not filmed. Not a lot of media when out on road clearing operations with the Combat Engineers and our Soldiers were too busy to be filming themselves. There are not enough M9s (or other pistols) for every Soldier/Marine to dual carry but it was much more common that you indicated.

I'll take your word for that. Previously, all I had to go by is the photographic and video evidence, which shows -- for infantry and special forces -- that dual carry is rather uncommon.

Frankly, only a fraction of deployed Soldiers/Marines deployed in theater went outside the wire so if DOD wanted all those outside wire could have dual carried. At some point, you have to make the "weight" question of do I want to carry pistol, holster, extra mags, etc. or does rifle ammo, radio, etc. take priority.

Yup. And it seems pretty clear that the majority of troops who went outside the wire elected to not dual carry.