Originally posted by cory
View Post
PDWs...and other small arms.
Collapse
X
-
Give me a second I'm going to go pull a stanc...
Originally posted by LRRPF52 View PostWe don't need pistols for most of the duty positions that carry pistols, because pistols are about worthless for pretty much everyone in the military except investigators and a few units in the SOF community, and the modern handgun/sidearm needs to be brought into the 21st Century as well, not stuck in the rut of the 20th Century."Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by LRRPF52 View PostTavor is too big for support troops who need to focus on their primary jobs without a magazine sticking out of the weapon.
A PDW needs to be able to be worn on a belt without being overly obtrusive and a snag hazard.
The Tavor is a modular system. It can be configured as a rifle, a carbine or as small as a SMP. Multiple calibers and barrel lengths.
Most of the weapons mentioned are too big. The Thompson is. But then even the P90 is about the same size as the Tavor.
Remember that the PDW has to not only fit on a belt but also be effective out to 300m.
Comment
-
-
One of the things I noticed was that while I was issued an M9 in Afghanistan, generally outside the wire we carried rifles. The M9 was for having a weapon on base (FOP). We also had a unit policy of dropping our weapons to slings then going to steel (knives for the most part) if we were over ran. Under 10 ft we risked shooting each other. So knives were better. One of our guys carried a Tomahawk and used it against the Tabliban. Sliced one insurgent from chest to stomach. Scared the crap out of the rest of them.
Outside the wire you want a rifle and knives.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by n9nwo View PostThe problem is that often the support troops are doing patrols. Not staying in an office. Yes if you are a foppet then you may not need a rifle. But few support troops are staying within the wire. More and more of our combat injuries and deaths are among the support troops, not infantry.
The Tavor is a modular system. It can be configured as a rifle, a carbine or as small as a SMP. Multiple calibers and barrel lengths.
Most of the weapons mentioned are too big. The Thompson is. But then even the P90 is about the same size as the Tavor.
Remember that the PDW has to not only fit on a belt but also be effective out to 300m.NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
www.AR15buildbox.com
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by n9nwo View Post
Remember that the PDW has to not only fit on a belt but also be effective out to 300m.
Knives at 5 paces and 300M guns that fit on the belt. This thread is more Star Trek than reality.
A 5.56mm 10.5" AR with a collapsible stock is effective to 200M. A 7" barrel is good enough for 50-100M and would be more effective with specific ammo for the short barrel. Smaller calibres are less effective on flesh but have their place in the paramilitary. If these guys are non-infantry and don't train with their weapons then you wont be able to offset smaller calibres with shot placement. If the most compact versions of effective guns are still too bulky for a soldier's MOS then have other soldiers nearby fully tooled-up and the non-infantry guys with similar weapons within easy reach. If they go out by themselves then they tool-up for the likely threat. If the cap fits, wear it.
One last comment, your 'unit policy' of deferring to knives in a CQB gunfight is utterly inconceivable - 'Sliced one insurgent from chest to stomach' with a tomahawk. Your claims are steeped in ignorance. I don't trust them.Last edited by Klem; 02-03-2017, 12:57 AM.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by n9nwo View PostWe also had a unit policy of dropping our weapons to slings then going to steel (knives for the most part) if we were over ran. Under 10 ft we risked shooting each other. So knives were better. One of our guys carried a Tomahawk and used it against the Tabliban. Sliced one insurgent from chest to stomach. Scared the crap out of the rest of them.
Outside the wire you want a rifle and knives.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by n9nwo View PostOne of the things I noticed was that while I was issued an M9 in Afghanistan, generally outside the wire we carried rifles. The M9 was for having a weapon on base (FOP). We also had a unit policy of dropping our weapons to slings then going to steel (knives for the most part) if we were over ran. Under 10 ft we risked shooting each other. So knives were better. One of our guys carried a Tomahawk and used it against the Tabliban. Sliced one insurgent from chest to stomach. Scared the crap out of the rest of them.
Outside the wire you want a rifle and knives.
I gotta tell you, I've seen and heard of some pretty absurd things, but this one is raising my flag just a bit.NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
www.AR15buildbox.com
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by stanc View PostI hope you'll understand my finding that report of questionable credibility. I mean, you have enemy personnel with AK's spraying bullets at you and your buddies, and you're so concerned with the possibility of fratricide that you intentionally stop using your most effective weapon???
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Klem View Post...and make a cappuccino latte.
Knives at 5 paces and 300M guns that fit on the belt. This thread is more Star Trek than reality.
A 5.56mm 10.5" AR with a collapsible stock is effective to 200M. A 7" barrel is good enough for 50-100M and would be more effective with specific ammo for the short barrel. Smaller calibres are less effective on flesh but have their place in the paramilitary. If these guys are non-infantry and don't train with their weapons then you wont be able to offset smaller calibres with shot placement. If the most compact versions of effective guns are still too bulky for a soldier's MOS then have other soldiers nearby fully tooled-up and the non-infantry guys with similar weapons within easy reach. If they go out by themselves then they tool-up for the likely threat. If the cap fits, wear it.
One last comment, your 'unit policy' of deferring to knives in a CQB gunfight is utterly inconceivable - 'Sliced one insurgent from chest to stomach' with a tomahawk. Your claims are steeped in ignorance. I don't trust them.
I was in Saudi for Desert Shield, Storm and Return. When I left there was 43 sq. miles of ammunition being prepared to ship back to the states. That is like having a pile of ammo on every block in Chicago. We had to much specialized stuff. Thus the Army and Marines are looking at ways to have few types of weapons so that they can bring more ammo for the ones that they have. Thus the need for 6.5mm cartridge to replace both the 5.56x45 and the 7.62x51. And merging the three cannon rounds into one (get rid of the 20mm and 30mm in favor of the 25mm).
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by n9nwo View PostOne thing to remember is logistics. We can have a pistol or a PDW but not both. the problem is that the more systems you have then the more ammo has to be brought into theater. We are attempting to have less systems, not more.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by LRRPF52 View PostWe don't need pistols for most of the duty positions that carry pistols, because pistols are about worthless for pretty much everyone in the military except investigators and a few units in the SOF community, and the modern handgun/sidearm needs to be brought into the 21st Century as well, not stuck in the rut of the 20th Century.
You run into a malfunction or complete stoppage, it is nice to have a secondary weapon system like a carry pistol to rely upon until you can hunker down behind cover and figure out what is happening with your rifle.Last edited by ahillock; 02-03-2017, 07:19 AM.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by n9nwo View PostOne thing to remember is logistics. We can have a pistol or a PDW but not both. the problem is that the more systems you have then the more ammo has to be brought into theater. We are attempting to have less systems, not more.
I was in Saudi for Desert Shield, Storm and Return. When I left there was 43 sq. miles of ammunition being prepared to ship back to the states. That is like having a pile of ammo on every block in Chicago. We had to much specialized stuff. Thus the Army and Marines are looking at ways to have few types of weapons so that they can bring more ammo for the ones that they have. Thus the need for 6.5mm cartridge to replace both the 5.56x45 and the 7.62x51. And merging the three cannon rounds into one (get rid of the 20mm and 30mm in favor of the 25mm).
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by ahillock View Post"The fastest reload is the transition to secondary weapon system."
You run into a malfunction or complete stoppage, it is nice to have a secondary weapon system like a carry pistol to rely upon until you can hunker down behind cover and figure out what is happening with your rifle.
This thread reminds me of the old saying, 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'
Comment
-
Comment