PRS equipment questions

[LR1955]

Well damn, that's disheartening. I chose Grendel over 224 Valkyrie for my platform because I was told (with a 24" barrel) it will do 1000 yards all day long with nary a whimper, and packs more punch than the Valkyrie. Long distance (non-competition) PRS was the whole purpose for this build...well, that and the sense of accomplishment that came with building my own rifle from scratch. But 5.56 will do 500 yards, and I already had a few of those. Guess I should have ask which one will ACCURATELY hit 1000 yards.

FM:

I thought you were comparing it to your .308 for PRS. I do not own a Valkyrie but I imagine the Valkyrie would have an edge in exterior ballistics and recoil. I don't think either are decent long range cartridges.

Given non competition long range shooting, the only edge the Grendel will have over the Valkyrie would be that you can see splash easier and have a much better chance of hearing the bullet hit a gong. Those are very good things so you are probably better off with the Grendel.

If it were competition in an organized sport, then neither would be a good choice.

LR55

[Flight Medic]

FM:

I thought you were comparing it to your .308 for PRS.
<snip>

The AR-31 (.308) was never meant for PRS. In fact, I didn't even know what "PRS" was at that time, I bought it on a whim because I thought it would be cool to have a "sniper" rifle for the Zombie-pocalypse. LOL

This AR started off as just a hobby project with no dedicated purpose. I had the upper and lower sitting in their factory boxes for quite a while, not sure what form the rifle was going to take. The original idea was to do another 5.56 "on the cheap" simply to have the build experience. After vacillating back and fourth between SBR, carbine or a retro-style A1 platforms a friend suggested I make a long-range target AR. Since the only "long-range" rifle I had was a bolt gun I thought a PRS AR would be a great addition to the stable and avoid redundancy with my other ARs. I had heard that Creedmoor was the darling caliber for PRS, but since I didn't want to have to buy a new lower to accommodate the larger cartridge (the whole point was to use what I already had) I asked for suggestions. Valkyrie and Grendel were consistently mentioned, and my FFL-guy said Grendel was the better choice. When I asked what kind of distances I could expect he told me that, with a 24" barrel, it would consistently be able to hit 1000 yards.

I came here for more advice on the Grendel cartridge and quickly discovered the quality of barrel will be the most important part in accuracy. After dropping $500 on a precision Lilja I decided not to scrimp on the rest of the parts for the rifle, and my "on the cheap" project turned into a $4000 build (granted, half of that was the optic...so actually only $2K). I really like how it turned out, but I am disappointed about getting bad advice regarding the effective range of Grendel. If I had known it was not going to consistently get me out to 1000 yards (as I was told), I most likely would have gone with a cheaper/smaller optic.

Oh well, it is what it is. Still should be a nice shooter...despite its limitations.

[LR1955]

The AR-31 (.308) was never meant for PRS. In fact, I didn't even know what "PRS" was at that time, I bought it on a whim because I thought it would be cool to have a "sniper" rifle for the Zombie-pocalypse. LOL

This AR started off as just a hobby project with no dedicated purpose. I had the upper and lower sitting in their factory boxes for quite a while, not sure what form the rifle was going to take. The original idea was to do another 5.56 "on the cheap" simply to have the build experience. After vacillating back and fourth between SBR, carbine or a retro-style A1 platforms a friend suggested I make a long-range target AR. Since the only "long-range" rifle I had was a bolt gun I thought a PRS AR would be a great addition to the stable and avoid redundancy with my other ARs. I had heard that Creedmoor was the darling caliber for PRS, but since I didn't want to have to buy a new lower to accommodate the larger cartridge (the whole point was to use what I already had) I asked for suggestions. Valkyrie and Grendel were consistently mentioned, and my FFL-guy said Grendel was the better choice. When I asked what kind of distances I could expect he told me that, with a 24" barrel, it would consistently be able to hit 1000 yards.

I came here for more advice on the Grendel cartridge and quickly discovered the quality of barrel will be the most important part in accuracy. After dropping $500 on a precision Lilja I decided not to scrimp on the rest of the parts for the rifle, and my "on the cheap" project turned into a $4000 build (granted, half of that was the optic...so actually only $2K). I really like how it turned out, but I am disappointed about getting bad advice regarding the effective range of Grendel. If I had known it was not going to consistently get me out to 1000 yards (as I was told), I most likely would have gone with a cheaper/smaller optic.

Oh well, it is what it is. Still should be a nice shooter...despite its limitations.

FM:

It depends on what you consider to be 'consistent' at any range.

Since you are only out there to see what you can do, you have not made any bad decisions at all. You will enjoy any sort of distance shooting with a quality rifle, optic, and ammo than a no name parts gun using a barrel whose origin is unknown to the buyer.

Look at it like this too. My 6 X 47 Lapua is a much better choice than a Grendel for distances where doping the wind becomes difficult. It is not a better choice than a Grendel in terms of barrel life. And it is not a rifle or cartridge I would waste a barrel on shooting at anything closer than 500 yards. You will get way more barrel life out of your Grendel and the brass is way cheaper. Needless to say, I don't shoot the 6 X 47 that much.

Another thing is that most ranges do not go past 200 yards. You are lucky that the range you use does have longer distances. That said, without a spotter or a reactive target I would probably not know if I hit something past 500 with a 6mm cartridge unless a bunch of conditions were pretty much ideal. Like no mirage and the sun behind me and a platform from which I could attain a solid position. Much higher chance of seeing splash and hearing a hit with a 6.5 or 7.62.

So, you made a good choice and now it is up to you to learn how to dope winds.

LR55

[Flight Medic]

Thanks, LR...I appreciate all the feedback.

[Growler]

Pareto principle:
Rank the top 20% of your firing solution error budget..they are 80% of the result.

Get a good spotting scope, a marginal range finder, and a cheap chrono.
Don?t even think about vector cross products (spin drift etc.) until you have muzzle velocity variation locked down. Not worth the effort.
Wind is a PITA, btw
Shoot early in the morning.

[Flight Medic]

<snip>Rank the top 20% of your firing solution error budget..they are 80% of the result.</snip>

That went straight over my head, bro. I have NO idea what any of that means. I know how to put the crosshairs on the target and squeeze the trigger...and that's about it. I'm still working on breathing control and trigger technique. Hoping a computer will do all the other work for me. LOL

[Growler]

Sorry, that was some engineering speak from a former life that escaped after a long day.

All I meant to say was firing solutions can involve many factors. If you focus on the big ones first, it’s more satisfying and progress happens faster. The small details only matter when the big ones are squared away.

[Cajuntransplant]

Geoballistics is a great app to have on your phone and works well. As does Hornady 4DOF. Read up on them and get good data put into them and you?ll get good and accurate results. Kestrel are nice but I haven?t used one in few years since the new apps out work great.

Chronograph is an invaluable tool to own. Black Friday sale might come in handy. If you don?t own one, possibly borrow one to get info on what your rifle shoots ammo at.

Get a good bipod and a nice rear bag. Setup all your gear and make sure the scope is level and mounted properly.

I would buy laser rangefinder binos over a straight rangefinder. Vortex and Sig make great ones.

Get in practice and practice and more practice. Take notes, make cheat sheets for what your bullet does when its what temp and it?s windy and how windy was it? Stuff like that. Ask questions and take most everything you get as answers with a grain of salt. Learn what you and the rifle are capable of. Learn what works for you.

There?s certain basic things that can?t be ignored or changed when trying to shoot well at long range. Get the fundamentals down and solid then invest in gear. Borrow gear first to see if you like it. It?s cheaper that way. Hahaha.

Grendel is a great cartridge. More than capable of 600yd shots. I?ve used mine in PRS style club matches to 900 yards with decent success.

[LRRPF52]

Things I use when getting the rifle/ammo/optic combo dialed-in for load development or zeroing:

Rifle/mount/optic/bipod/magazines

Chronograph

Spotting Scope/tripod

Range bag with staple gun, ammo, notebook, pens, staples, cleaning kit, ear pro, eye pro

Things I use when I actually go shoot long range:

Rifle/mount/optic/bipod/mags/sling

Kestrel

Spotting Scope/tripod

Good binos with wide FOV and clear glass

Smartphone with ballistics app

I shoot steel sils primarily and have a rather easy time rapid-firing into 12-18" TGTs out to 600yds, have video of doing it even with barrels shorter than 18", but I'm at higher altitude (thinner air), so that works to my advantage. I'm 9/10 hits with the 12" Grendel using the lowest BC TGT factory ammo there is at 800yds with a 1-4x GRSC scope on it firing from magazine monopod position, in maybe 5-7mph winds at 6600ft elevation.

If you shoot the 123gr SMK, 123gr Scenar, or 107 SMK at distance, you get good results out to 1100yds+ where I'm at. At sea level, depending on your barrel length, you can whittle that back roughly 200yds, but a 20" with the better TGT bullets will do well out to 1000yds in 10mph or less winds on 18" sils.

[Wethepeople]

I would not spend alot of money on gear. A good laser range finder is all you really need to get started shooting long range at unknown distances.

The most important thing you need is good trajectory data for your rifle/bullet combination. That can be approximated with even free ballistic calculators or trajectory data from some reloading manuals. Fine tune from there by shooting and keeping DOPE. Most of the inputs you need for a ballistic calculator are sight height of your scope, bullet type and muzzle velocity. Everything else with respect to external enviornment can be gleaned from your phone, providing you have service. If you don't have service where you plan to shoot, get that data while still in service. Coriolis and other small details aren't necessary until you get to the point of shooting pop cans at extremely long distance. Keep it simple. Inclination isn't all that important either unless your shooting steep angles.

Wind meters are good at telling you wind speed/direction at your shooting position but doesn't tell you what the wind is doing every 100 yards to your target, which can be entirely different. Learning to read wind takes practice and a good spotting scope or binoculars is almost mandatory to learn to read wind by observing mirage. It is much easier if you can shoot extended ranges with a partner as a spotter. Especially shooting larger caliber, higher recoil impulse rifles, that drive the muzzle off the target from recoil, obviously making harder to spot hits. Learning to see mirage with optics is fairly straight forward. If you want to see what the wind is doing at any distance down range, focus your optic at a distant object at that range. Next, back the focus off so that images approximately 2/3 of the way to that distant object are in focus, while you are still watching the distant object which is now out of focus in your optic. Doesn't matter how hot or how cold the temps, with practice you can see the wind. Don't use your riflescope to do this as warm barrels will distort what you're trying to see.

Save the money you would otherwise spend on all the gadgets on good quality ammo that shoots great from your firearm, reloading equipment and components. Then find a shooting buddy who is willing to be your spotter and vice versa.

[Wethepeople]

I should add that I don't shoot PRS but do shoot ftr and extended long range.

You do not need a ballistic calculator to shoot known distances. If you know trajectory and wind data for your cartridge and keep good DOPE you don't need one.

[LRRPF52]

One thing I've noticed at most PRS matches is that you rarely see targets past 700yds.

From a practical standpoint trying to score each stage, the RO at that stage has to be able to provide consistent and fair scoring for each competitor.

Especially with 6mms, once you get beyond 700yds, this becomes more and more difficult. Hit probability on small plates with .308 at those distances is extremely low.

130gr and 140gr 6.5mm are much easier to register hits at those distances, but a lot of PRS shooters are shooting 6mm because of less recoil and therefore less sight picture disturbance.

Since they aren't paper matches with pit monkeys, once you get past 700yds, it just isn't practical to score the hits unless you have reactive targets, which we are seeing more of at some venues.

Doing LR training with a spotter is another thing, so you can easily hear and see hits at 1000yds with a 6.5mm, including the Grendel given enough impact speed and bullet weight.

I find this much easier to do at higher altitude even with my shorter barrel Grendels.

Here's a 2/3 IPSC we were shooting at 1000yds at North Springs. Small hits are from my 17.6" Lilja lightweight Wasp profile barrel 6.5 Grendel with 123gr A-MAX, large hits are from 24" 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr ELD-M. Elevation up there is 6600ft ASL.

I had just got done shooting an 8" vertical and 4" horizontal group on a really large 1000yd square gong with bullseye, then transitioned to the 2/3 IPSC. Center-punched the forehead 1st round. You can use that impact to compare with the 140gr 6.5mm impacts out of a 24" barrel.

[Wethepeople]

Good post. I agree with your comments LLRPF52. No doubt about altitude being a benefactor too. I have an 18" WOA barrel in .223 wylde that shoots CBC factory loads of 77gr OTM at 1000 yard silhouette same size as those in your pics and is almost boring. That range is at 5200 ft. We.use the red LED hit indicators which makes shooting solo really nice. We do have a 4x4 square going adjacent to the silhouette as well.

Nice shooting btw. I hope to post some pics sometime soon when this mud around here dries up or freezes.