Bags or bipods?

[LRRPF52]

Here's footage of the GAP Grind. It's basically where 3-gun meets long-range shooting, with small plate targets, lots of position shooting, towers, berms, barricades, tunnels, window apertures, cars, boulder piles, and so forth. Everything is on the clock, and 1st-round hits get max points. Looks like one of the most challenging and fun competitions out there.

http://youtu.be/OCWK4O8orOs

You can see a guy sponsored by GAP shooting with the bags on his stock forearm and elbow at 11:24. He's extremely fast, BTW.

[Nukes]

...AND Yeung also has a bipod :-)

[NugginFutz]

Here's footage of the GAP Grind. It's basically where 3-gun meets long-range shooting, with small plate targets, lots of position shooting, towers, berms, barricades, tunnels, window apertures, cars, boulder piles, and so forth. Everything is on the clock, and 1st-round hits get max points. Looks like one of the most challenging and fun competitions out there.

You can see a guy sponsored by GAP shooting with the bags on his stock forearm and elbow at 11:24. He's extremely fast, BTW.

Yeah - He's about 20 years younger than me, too. I couldn't see myself slogging through that course with a bag like that that on the end of a rifle.

[Drifter]

Just an example of what type of lightweight options are available for those who might be interested:





Link: http://www.skdtac.com/BALS-MK-2-Snip...-p/bal.602.htm

[frank]

I shoot with a bipod and a rear bean bag (ie squeeze bag). My wife made the bean bag for me out of a nylon-ish material. Fill with pre-expanded PS beads. I also filled one with airsoft bb's just as an experiment. I prefer the PS beads- much lighter also.

Having said that, shooting off of bags is much easier. You can make minor adjustments when shooting off of bags where you would have to reposition if using a bipod. The bags also seem to soak up the recoil whereas a bipod will bounce if you haven't loaded it properly.

[Nukes]

Maybe I am not loading it properly. Whether 6.5 Grendel or .338 LM, I am using axial forward pressure short of moving the bipod forward, nothing radical.

[bwaites]

Bipods bounce regardless of what I do. I've even watched elite F-Class FTR shooters, videoing from the side, and their bipods bounce, pre-loaded or not. Some of the more expensive bipods bounce less, but they all bounce some.

I use a Sinclair F-Class bipod on my 7mm WSM and 28" Grendel, and it bounces, too. Like all bipods, it bounces much worse on hard surfaces like benches. I'm considering a shock absorbing cushion for mounting between the Bipod and the rifle to see if that helps. But that bounce and the repositioning is the major reason most F-Class Open shooters use bags on rests. However, F Open at the National level has been won by at least one shooter using a bipod.

The only partial solution to bounce is weight. My heavy 28" bounces much less and more predictably than my light 20" Grendel. The 20" bounces enough on a bench that at times we've started laughing watching someone shoot it. However, get that 20" down on the ground, where it belongs, and get the legs positioned correctly, and a stable position behind it, and the bounce either disappears to a great extent, or I don't notice it!

The bipods with spring loaded legs seem worse than the solid legs on the F Class Sinclair, but that may be perception, I haven't thought to film the same rifle on both, guess that's a project for next trip!

The best groups I've shot with the 28" have all been off bipods, but my best groups period, with my F Class or 20" Grendel have been from bags. I have shot some TINY groups with the 7mm WSM and the Sinclair F Class bipod, though, and its what I compete with. (I'm too lazy to haul a heavy base and bags around all day at a match, and I'm not THAT competitive!)

[Nukes]

wear bags? Do they hang bags off their rifles? For that matter, do they use bipods?

As best I can discern as a non-professional shooter, professional XLR shooters use bags and bipods to improvise the necessary positions, but do not wear or hang their bags. Am I right or wrong on that?

Where does "real world" cross into "gamesmanship"?

[montana]

When I was an active 3-Gun competitor I tried to design stages that didn't allow for much "gamesmanship." Present the problem and solve it on the spot. Too many times I'd see competitors planning their every move, closing their eyes, visualizing the exact sequence—seemed too divorced from the reality that 3-Gun was originally supposed to recreate. Certainly the "gamesmanship" approach did develop certain skill sets, but I enjoyed the problem solving more than how fast I could empty a space gun.

In that context I wonder, do professional XLR shooters wear bags? Do they hang bags off their rifles? For that matter, do they use bipods?

As best I can discern as a non-professional shooter, professional XLR shooters use bags and bipods to improvise the necessary positions, but do not wear or hang their bags. Am I right or wrong on that?

Where does "real world" cross into "gamesmanship"?

People should never get games mixed up with real world confrontations. Multi-gun and mixed martial arts are wonderful for improving ones skill but they take on a whole new meaning where playing fair and abiding by rules never enter the picture.

[NugginFutz]

People should never get games mixed up with real world confrontations. Multi-gun and mixed martial arts are wonderful for improving ones skill but they take on a whole new meaning where playing fair and abiding by rules never enter the picture.

+1

If you're "playing fair" in the real world, then you've handed your opponent the opening he's looking for.

[Tedward]

Bipods bounce regardless of what I do. I've even watched elite F-Class FTR shooters, videoing from the side, and their bipods bounce, pre-loaded or not. Some of the more expensive bipods bounce less, but they all bounce some.

I use a Sinclair F-Class bipod on my 7mm WSM and 28" Grendel, and it bounces, too. Like all bipods, it bounces much worse on hard surfaces like benches. I'm considering a shock absorbing cushion for mounting between the Bipod and the rifle to see if that helps. But that bounce and the repositioning is the major reason most F-Class Open shooters use bags on rests. However, F Open at the National level has been won by at least one shooter using a bipod.

The only partial solution to bounce is weight. My heavy 28" bounces much less and more predictably than my light 20" Grendel. The 20" bounces enough on a bench that at times we've started laughing watching someone shoot it. However, get that 20" down on the ground, where it belongs, and get the legs positioned correctly, and a stable position behind it, and the bounce either disappears to a great extent, or I don't notice it!

The bipods with spring loaded legs seem worse than the solid legs on the F Class Sinclair, but that may be perception, I haven't thought to film the same rifle on both, guess that's a project for next trip!

The best groups I've shot with the 28" have all been off bipods, but my best groups period, with my F Class or 20" Grendel have been from bags. I have shot some TINY groups with the 7mm WSM and the Sinclair F Class bipod, though, and its what I compete with. (I'm too lazy to haul a heavy base and bags around all day at a match, and I'm not THAT competitive!)

As for barrel length and recoil causing movement, does the length of the barrel seem to be a factor of accuracy? You can support the gun all you want but when you pull the trigger, by the time the bullet exits the barrel if it moves does that affect the accuracy? On another post someone was saying it moves out of the barrel in .000256 milliseconds so the length is not a factor. I understand a lighter barrel will bounce like you said so which way do ya go....24" and heavy or short 16"and lite??

Reason I'm asking is I have a brand new unfired 16" I was about to use but might sell. I also have a new LW 20" coming soon so should I just wait and use that for woods hunting. I wont carry a bag but will have my bi-pod. My 24" is really accurate from bench with bags and bi-pods but to big to carry around.

[TheOTHERmaninblack]

Harmonics are what determine accuracy (to a large extent). This is why "pet" loads cannot be reliably mass produced by ammunition manufacturers. That being said, yes, the barrel is going to move as the bullet travels down the tube. But so long as it moves in the same manner and to the same degree (harmonics) the bullet will consistently leave at the same point in the travel. Which means that accuracy in the age of glass is far less a function of barrel length than it was in the days of irons.

[Nukes]

People should never get games mixed up with real world confrontations. Multi-gun and mixed martial arts are wonderful for improving ones skill but they take on a whole new meaning where playing fair and abiding by rules never enter the picture.

Exactly the point (noting that moral imperatives should still rule our response in life-threatening encounters, including war).

Who, in a life-threatening encounter, would forego groin or occipital hits? Analogously, who then, in uncertain expectation of a life threatening encounter, would trade the deployment speed and adaptability of a bipod for the accuracy of wearing bags instead?

...by the time the bullet exits the barrel...On another post someone was saying it moves out of the barrel in .000256 milliseconds...

The published numbers I have seen are on the order of 1 millisecond from ignition to exit.

[bwaites]

As for barrel length and recoil causing movement, does the length of the barrel seem to be a factor of accuracy? You can support the gun all you want but when you pull the trigger, by the time the bullet exits the barrel if it moves does that affect the accuracy? On another post someone was saying it moves out of the barrel in .000256 milliseconds so the length is not a factor. I understand a lighter barrel will bounce like you said so which way do ya go....24" and heavy or short 16"and lite??

Reason I'm asking is I have a brand new unfired 16" I was about to use but might sell. I also have a new LW 20" coming soon so should I just wait and use that for woods hunting. I wont carry a bag but will have my bi-pod. My 24" is really accurate from bench with bags and bi-pods but to big to carry around.

Short barrels have less "whip" and therefore less potential loss of accuracy. The most accurate barrels are heavy, relatively thick barrels. We use longer barrels to achieve greater velocity, trying for that sweet spot. But if I could get a 123 to 2650 FPS out of a 16 inch barrel, I'd feel like I'd found the Grail. I wouldn't consider hunting with more than a sixteen inch barrel unless I was just stand hunting. 4 inches doesn't seem like much until you start busting brush or hiking through rough country and it keeps snagging! You'll be happy you went 16"!

[LRRPF52]

This was my first question when I was advised to put together a sand sock during my first formal Sniper training course: "Where am I going to pack that thing?"

One solution I really like is the use of peas in a smaller sand sock, enclosed in a plastic bag within the sand sock material. When you get put out on an extended surveillance/overwatch mission, and you run out of food, the contents of the sand sock double as your emergency meal.

The one bipod I like over all others is the Sako TRG bipod. A lot of input went into the design of the TRG, and it was taken directly from Snipers within the Finnish Defense Forces, especially those guys who are gun guys. They actually modeled the TRG bipod off of the M60 bipod in some ways, but the TRG bipod lets the center of mass of the rifle at the fulcrum hang beneath the hinge points of the bipod legs. It also has rounded teeth on the bipod feet, which will even purcahse pretty well into wood. Here is a McMillan Bros. A4 stocked Sako 75 with a custom TRG bipod receptacle bedded into the front of the rather large fore end.



The sand sock you see there has the peas inside it as I described, which one of the Finnish Snipers I know uses.