Is the Ammunition Shortage Real or Manufactured?

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  • grayfox
    Chieftain
    • Jan 2017
    • 4319

    #16
    I still seriously doubt that report. Now VSTO, Vista Outdoors, is a publicly traded company so there is plenty of financials and analysts reports to read through...
    I'm looking now at some of the VSTO SEC filings and analyst reports, there's still more detail for me to look at, but off the top I see no increase in on-hand inventories and no huge costs, profits or otherwise, through the 2020 annual and the latest 10-Q. There is a lot of variability in their financial performance, and they are middle of the pack/slightly below mid level as far as financial performance in the leisure industry. Their market cap is not especially high.
    Overall several analysts do have a buy or equivalent recommendation but there is nothing that I see so far that would indicate any hoarding, sitting on inventories or big market plays to sink other competing firms or whatever. If someone wants to remove their competition they usually try to flood the market with their own goods at lower than normal prices (think "gas wars" of the past, or China undercutting American firms) -- they don't hoard their own materials. And that usually means they take losses for a while, hoping the competition cannot stay in the game. And such behavior (hoarding) would make their inventories and costs both go way up but revenues go way down... and analysts typically find those things out and talk about them.

    So.... where is the financial analysis that proves the article's points? Perhaps OP has done the analysis and could enlighten us?

    I personally don't believe any statements of "a billion $$ in backlog" unless they are willing to say that under oath to the SEC. Otherwise, just water-cooler brag.
    "Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"

    Comment

    • LR1955
      Super Moderator
      • Mar 2011
      • 3359

      #17
      I am always amazed at what people believe and this article is one of them. This guy makes claims without any sort of evidence. Saying he heard it from a friend 'in the industry' isn't evidence. So he comes up with another conspiracy theory -- that the big boys are starving smaller companies out of business so they can claim that market. What small ammo company has gone out of business? I didn't see any listed. You would think that if a company was starved out of business because they couldn't get primers that their CEO or President would be saying something and would probably be suing Vista right now. Nothing I know of. Anyone out there know of an ammo manufacturer who has gone out of business because Vista Corp withheld primers from them?

      Also, I haven't seen Wolf or CHICOM ammo or components since this all started. Imported ammo and components was probably half the market because they were so cheap. Imports stopped when Covid started and all of that demand was shifted on to US firms. Remington goes out of business and more demand is placed on fewer companies. So I believe the supply and demand side.

      Nope -- I don't believe anyone in the ammo business saw this coming. And they would be morons to invest millions in capital goods with all three branches of government gun haters. And in five years, if we survive the leftists in charge now, I imagine the demand for primers and ammo will be not much different than today.

      Do I trust the guys running these places to tell me the truth? Not on your life. I have never seen such a disaster in terms of public relations between these companies and the majority of the long term shooting community. They are totally incompetent when it comes to communicating with those who keep them afloat for the long term. The guys who support them long term are the handloaders and competitive shooters, most who handload unless sponsored. I won't forget how we are being treated by these places.

      LR55

      Comment

      • StoneHendge
        Chieftain
        • May 2016
        • 2018

        #18
        Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
        I am always amazed at what people believe and this article is one of them. This guy makes claims without any sort of evidence. Saying he heard it from a friend 'in the industry' isn't evidence. So he comes up with another conspiracy theory.

        LR55
        You just described the MSM!
        Let's go Brandon!

        Comment

        • lazyengineer
          Chieftain
          • Feb 2019
          • 1299

          #19
          Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
          I am always amazed at what people believe and this article is one of them. This guy makes claims without any sort of evidence. ....
          LR55
          Yep. The challenge with a conspiracy theory is they are impossible to disprove. You can't prove a negative, only a positive. Any attempts to discredit a conspiracy, only reveal the depth of how entrenched the consiracy reaalllly is. All while everyone forgets to put the burden-of-proof on the one propposing the conspiracy theory.

          As to primers vs toilet paper; obviously we've all been through this. But the reality is it's a bad risk-investment to build a primer plant during a shortage. That's a heavily regulated hazard / dangerous good explosive product, that is subject to severe market fluctuations. The market flucuates, and that's a great way to have a 10-digit (or bigger) investment facility come on line, and immediatly be idled. Sure, run the crews 24/7 and invest in a little bit of debottlenecking now; but beyond that... I'd take a dim view if I was on the Board of Directors.
          Last edited by lazyengineer; 03-16-2021, 06:35 PM.
          4x P100

          Comment

          • hill37
            Warrior
            • Apr 2017
            • 636

            #20
            I wonder if Razorback is a fan of the football team by that name? They do get delusional some times. Wolves up!

            Comment

            • Razorback
              Bloodstained
              • Dec 2020
              • 58

              #21

              Comment

              • grayfox
                Chieftain
                • Jan 2017
                • 4319

                #22
                No one is shutting down your speech, but they are commenting on it for sure. And so far I have seen no analytics other than, like I said, the financial SEC data that every public company is required to post.

                I'm not defending Vista or any other company and am ambivalent as far as most "mgt decisions"... after all they got out of the firearms biz (I think b/c the politics was too hot for them) but turned around and re-invested that sale money into buying up assets from the Remington bust... so they've signaled an intention to stay in the shooting business. But they compete for the big $$ from the institutional investors along with all the other leisure sector companies in the stock market... and unless they've got huge monopoly power already like Bezos and Amazon, they are not likely to survive any attempts to "corner" a market with such a small market capitalization.

                I'm still waiting on your financial analysis details..............
                "Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"

                Comment

                • grayfox
                  Chieftain
                  • Jan 2017
                  • 4319

                  #23
                  By the way, A5 or somebody please make up some popcorn!!!
                  "Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"

                  Comment

                  • Razorback
                    Bloodstained
                    • Dec 2020
                    • 58

                    #24
                    1. Vista did make a BILLION dollars that is undeniable.
                    2. Their yearly portfolio was strong enough to acquire Remington's ammunition line for $81.4 MILLION dollars in the final quarter of 2020.
                    3. According to NASDAQ VSTO according to their analytics by Zacks Investment Research, based on 6 analysts' forecasts, the consensus EPS forecast for the quarter is $0.63. The reported EPS for the same quarter last year was $0.11. Why would you need a report based on 10 quarters? https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activi.../vsto/earnings
                    4. If you are right and their earnings to debt ratio was worse in later quarters than their revenue increases would even be even greater. Which would mean that their slowing the supply has worked.
                    5. Yes, by flooding the market you can shut down competition. This is done by having enough liquidity for buying materials in large quantities or out right owning or BUYING the mines of the raw materials thus cutting your costs down as well your price! Now Olin / Winchester, already does this looks like federal might be primed to do this as well and why wouldn't they with a B I L L I O N dollars in hand?
                    6. If you are 60% of the market share of ANY product and supply basically most ammunition makers how would they compete if they a. do not have the means or capacity to meet their demands or b. are DEPENDENT on your products? There aren't any options short term in ammunition makers right now they have to but primer from basically 2 providers!
                    Think OPEC and the 79' oil embargo did they "flood" the market? They literally had the engine of the FREE world over a barrel! Think Russia and their Natural gas pipeline into Europe, via Syria. If they wanted to they can dissolve the E.U. in HOURS, this when oil was trading below a penny in the summer of 2020!
                    7. To think that the gun industry hasn't seen their portfolio's grow in the last year is a conspiracy. Smith and Wesson alone doubled their sales from last year. https://www.forbes.com/sites/aaronsm...h=5f98ffff7933

                    Comment

                    • Razorback
                      Bloodstained
                      • Dec 2020
                      • 58

                      #25
                      You are missing the point. It is not the point that that it is a bad or risky move, to build a primer facility during a shortage, that is OBVIOUS! The whole point is if you believe Vista and Olin, then why didn't they modernize, expand or warehouse since 1993 it is not like we never had an ammo shortage since 2020? Again, if they were that bad in business they would have ended up like Remington, with a BILLION dollar DEBT instead of a BILLION dollars in backorders! The point is even easier to make BECAUSE primers are so dangerous and explosive. They had the means to ramp up years ago! Something does NOT add up! To call it conspiracy is lame and to blame it on hoarding is even lamer!

                      Comment

                      • Razorback
                        Bloodstained
                        • Dec 2020
                        • 58

                        #26
                        Nether does hoarding...LOL!

                        Comment

                        • Razorback
                          Bloodstained
                          • Dec 2020
                          • 58

                          #27
                          [QUOTE=lazyengineer;280628]So....I guess the cardboard tube cartel was responsible for the Toilet Paper shortage during COVID?

                          The last time I checked I can buy toilet paper, it doesn't cost 100 X's more than it was prior, so that does not equate, DOES IT?!
                          When you are in the toilet paper business I am sure they are smart enough to make the paper tube that comes with the roll! Too bad ammo companies have figured that much out if you make ammo that you maybe would want to make primers as well! Winchester and Federal have figured out as much! The problem is we rely on a cabal and take their word on the business they DOMINATE and at this point if it turns out to be true they are slowing down production I cannot blame them!

                          To me there has been a run on ammo since 1993, YET they cannot seem to foresee other runs that seem to have happened and are happening every 6 months since. Talk about conspiracies!

                          Comment

                          • Razorback
                            Bloodstained
                            • Dec 2020
                            • 58

                            #28
                            I also comment without having to to rely on calling someone a conspiracy theorist that is lame.

                            I did list a link from NASDAQ I will post it again!


                            Tell me when you find yours.

                            Comment

                            • Razorback
                              Bloodstained
                              • Dec 2020
                              • 58

                              #29
                              [QUOTE=lazyengineer;280628]So....I guess the cardboard tube cartel was responsible for the Toilet Paper shortage during COVID?

                              The last time I checked I can buy toilet paper, it doesn't cost 100 X's more than it was prior, so that does not equate, DOES IT?!
                              When you are in the toilet paper business I am sure they are smart enough to make the paper tube that comes with the roll! Too bad ammo companies have figured that much out if you make ammo that you maybe would want to make primers as well! Winchester and Federal have figured out as much! The problem is we rely on a cabal and take their word on the business they DOMINATE and at this point if it turns out to be true they are slowing down production I cannot blame them!

                              To me there has been a run on ammo since 1993, YET they cannot seem to foresee other runs that seem to have happened and are happening every 6 months since. Talk about conspiracies!

                              Comment

                              • Razorback
                                Bloodstained
                                • Dec 2020
                                • 58

                                #30
                                Actually VSTO has seen profits INCREASE from the same quarter as last year here is a link from NASDAQ!
                                According to Zacks Investment Research, based on 6 analysts' forecasts, the consensus EPS forecast for the quarter is $0.63. The reported EPS for the same quarter last year was $0.11.

                                Comment

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