Reportedly a Deal is Done

[JASmith]

I have been reluctant to acknowledge the only rational reason for gun control -- "People Control".

"Common Sense", "Red Flag", "Preventing Gun Violence" are all no more than feel-good fig leaves to fool us and the naive.

I can't remember the number of times I have gotten into discussions about the various gambits and went no further than why they made no sense.

I really appreciate how well the illustration in today's 2021 Joke of the Day with the mouse and the frog captures the basic issue: https://www.65grendel.com/forum/show...494#post296494

No need to enumerate the number of times weapon control and confiscation was the first step in the slide to totalitarian rule and to genocide.

[SDW]

Here is another one: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...ing-150-people

Ah. I didn't read the first example carefully. Thought it was referring to the German incident. So there's at least two incidents.

And let's not forget Malaysia Flt 370. Might not have been a suicide, we'll never know. But all evidence points to it being intentional on someone's part. 239 people.

EDIT: Lazyengineer mentioned Flt 370 already. didnt' see it.

[grayfox]

Alec Baldwin has taken over for dirty-Ted and "Chappaquidick":

AlecBaldwin.jpg

[Fodderwing]

https://redstate.com/streiff/2022/06/14/mitch-mcconnell-shockingly-sells-out-his-constituents-and-the-rest-of-the-gop-and-supports-gun-control-legislation-n578588

[Csitt]

Found this the other day. A study from a branch of the justice department.

https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/public-mass-shootings-database-amasses-details-half-century-us-mass-shootings

Suicide was the key point.

Chuck S.

[NebSig]

Side note related to the overall topic...
It appears that several areas need to address their supposedly Pro 2A politicians in the upcoming elections. Time to remove some of these from office when they fail to understand their constitutional oath and their obligations to their supporters.
Republicans who voted for the bill are Sens. Roy Blunt; Richard Burr; Shelley Moore Capito; Bill Cassidy; Susan Collins; John Cornyn; Joni Ernst; Lindsey Graham; Mitch McConnell; Lisa Murkowski; Rob Portman; Mitt Romney; Thom Tillis; Pat Toomey; And Todd Young.
Lets send their constituents support in their efforts to replace the above and remove them from power.

[grayfox]

Definitely they sold out to political expedience. Mine were already sold out to being Dimms.

I do think that several parts will ultimately be ruled unconstitutional.
But it makes this an expensive thing, b/c citizens have to go to court to get it overturned.

[lazyengineer]

Ok, so in the end what was actually passed and signed. The headlines (which are quite incomplete of course), indicate:
-States to release and incorporate 18-21 criminal records into NCIS. I'm pretty OK with this - sorry if that's not OK with everyone that I am, if that's that.
-Additional funding for school security and mental health. Eh, for the most part I think these are fools errands and also fail to recognize that the armed officer at the school is actually a feature, since it's actually a suicide anyway. But aside from misplaced Make-It-Rain with money we don't have, doesn't seem to be an imposition on gun rights
-Red Flag Laws? Did they get stripped? I didn't hear much commentary on any details or if anything related to that is what ended up in the final bill. As always, the Devil is in the details. I'm OK with a system that allows us to respond to "I think this dude is about to shoot up the local school", so long as at the same time, it isn't something subject to abuse or undermines appropriate due-process. I have yet to see a version that sufficient address the latter, so Devil is in the details, but did they pass anything on this at all?

[grayfox]

On the so-called red flag laws, this thing supposedly makes $$ available to states who pass one, I don't know if any so-called "model features" were spelled out or not. Big thing here is, these laws in general violate due process and right against unreasonable search/seizure, and guilty until proven innocent -- oops that's right the Constitution says innocent until proven guilty! Now Congress is not making any federal red flag law but bribing the States to make them.

in particular the biggest point that SCOTUS was making in the 2A and Dobbs cases, is that the Constitution is meant to be taken literally, and no Bill of Rights right is 2d class. So most red flag laws will likely be thrown out as unconstitutional-- meaning again that this bill really does nothing. The 2d point is just as important, Enumerated, limited powers. So (in Dobbs) the regulation of abortion is reserved to the States and the People, not the feds, not Congress. So any red-flag, if legal at all, is also just an individual state thing.

Since the bill is doomed to fail the libs will continue to say "this is only the beginning, we must do more!!!"
My point in all of this is, if they really want to do something that will work (and they really don't want anything to work!), then start arresting and prosecuting and incarcerating criminals... Another point I believe would help - and I don't know exact details, but if someone starts shooting up a venue they are automatically labelled a terrorist and anyone, with any means including deadly force, is authorized and allowed to stop it. There's a sheriff in S Florida that basically said if someone breaks into your home and you shoot them you are doing the county a favor, saving them money, we won't prosecute you we will applaud you.

[grayfox]

I am not against the 18-21 background/juvenile records thing per se but again, it will probably be thrown out under equal protection (14th), in this way: suppose a 21 yr, 1 mo, old buys that weapon where a 20 yr old, 11 months cannot because both have a Juvy record but only the 20 yr/11 month old has his checked. That's unequal protection and the 20 yd/11 mo will find an ACLU lawyer to take that to court and have it thrown out... THEN go out and buy that weapon. So it should be all Juvy records or none... and perhaps some process to pardon or end a Juvy record effect, depending on severity etc.

[montana]

I am not against the 18-21 background/juvenile records thing per se but again, it will probably be thrown out under equal protection (14th), in this way: suppose a 21 yr, 1 mo, old buys that weapon where a 20 yr old, 11 months cannot because both have a Juvy record but only the 20 yr/11 month old has his checked. That's unequal protection and the 20 yd/11 mo will find an ACLU lawyer to take that to court and have it thrown out... THEN go out and buy that weapon. So it should be all Juvy records or none... and perhaps some process to pardon or end a Juvy record effect, depending on severity etc.

I have always been in the camp of reinstating citizens rights after having served their sentence. If the punishment fit the crime in most cases, then they would be old men by the time they got out of prison or would have been sent to the other place by the end of a rope. If these people can not be trusted with voting, driving an automobile or owning a firearm, then what the hell are they letting them out into society in the first place? Too many criminal acts are lightly punished if at all, yet they then throw these miscreants back into our neighborhoods without a second thought..

[Klem]

Montana,

On this I could not agree more. Here, the police run a cottage industry selling official clearances which list your criminal records for $50 each time. Driving records are another $50. There are online clearance providers who do the same on an industrial scale, especially for the mining and defense industries. Most potential employers want applicants to provide this now. Meanwhile, the ex-offender sits at home seething they cannot get a job or at least be competitive in the job market. Tell someone they are different for life and they will act differently - re-offending out of frustration or necessity, and being anti-social the rest of the time. A lot of terrorists however will have clean criminal records or come from places which don't record this sort of stuff. Keep them in or let them out, but if you let them out there is no tattoo on their forehead like the Japanese used to do.

Sounds like raising the age barrier to firearm ownership is more about maturity. Here it is 18 however there is no minimum if under the direct supervision of a license holder.

[grayfox]

The only thing I would add here is the term "recidivism." The tendency to fall back into criminal acts.
If however, some period of time elapses and they "stay clean," then I would be ok with restoring some or all of the rights.
Some criminal types, ie, sexual and other predators, don't tend to reform. In cases like those, actually some kind of 3-strikes=life without parole, would be ok by me. Or, as you say, a (permanent) visit to another realm.

[Drillboss]

In that list of mass killings with firearms - still rookie numbers compared to what a depressed airline pilot can do...

https://abcnews.go.com/International/chinese-plane-crash-killed-132-caused-intentional-act/story?id=84782873

131 innocent lives of people just going about their day, killed by one lunatic. In a highly screened secure zone with no firearms involved.





Pilot did it.

The reality is most mass-killing events are suicides. The best way to stop mass killings, isn't just general catch-all of "mental health". It's suicide prevention. Suicidal people don't always have a long history of mental health issues - they can be normal people just starting to lose it. Investments into suicide prevention and support aren't just valuable on face-value; they're valuable at mitigating shit like this too.

The suicide comment seems to be onto a real deal. I live in a city of about 50,000 people in northern Oklahoma, but I know of and have some sort of personal connection to about six suicide victims. I think 4 of those were between 18 and 24 years old. That's pretty much the same age range of most of the mass shooters going back to Columbine (I lived outside Denver when that went down). I'm convinced that there's some kind of link between the two phenomena.