To Be an American

[LRRPF52]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFrRklRskAQ

Thank you...

[olde sarge]

Thank you for posting that. I have heard others say in different ways but the meaning was always the same.

[LRRPF52]

I had traveled to 15 countries by age 15 or 16, so I already saw the huge difference in freedom between the US and elsewhere.

Serving in the military changes you, especially when you lose very good friends who are really top-notch people that we could have used at home, but they're gone. When I hold my kids, or look at my family, it is the fallen who I think of, and do what I can to savor the moments they will never have again in this life.

I wish I could share that feeling with my countrymen, because we all would be better people for it.

I met Tom Spooner at SHOT Thursday, and he is a genuinely friendly person, who is like the big brother you never had. His brother makes a very good case for the freedoms we enjoy in the United States, and the role our military plays in that, politics aside. The contrast to being held to restrictions in the military, versus being totally free are stark and very real, and it's nice to be able to breathe freely after a career of military service.

[Klem]

Crazy talk...No one living in a society is 'free'.

Our definition of freedom varies throughout the world depending on our enculturation. And you mention how you have travelled to other cultures and compared American (North American) lifestyle positively with others. The definition of that conclusion is ethnocentrism.

Culture limits freedoms, and it has to be for a society of people to live in each other's pockets without anarchy. "Come over here Mr Spooner and put your hands on the bonnet real quick!" "But Officer, I just made a commercial sponsorship video for Brownells and Smith & Wesson about how I am free."

If you want to be 'free' then you need to live by yourself in a place where others do not seek to limit your behaviour and thought. Swapping the military for a wife taught me that!

I am here for technical discussion, not political rhetoric.

Cringeworthy.

[LRRPF52]

Spooner's point was that he was much more free and felt a distinct sense of freedom after retiring from military service, without any political statement. He could have very well been a citizen of any other country, and made the same video, so I'm not seeing where the hypersensitivity is coming from.

What's cringeworthy is when a nation's best are treated worse than their worst.

I have relocated this to 2A since it isn't specific to 6.5 Grendel for Military/LE use.

[cory]

There is only one definition of Freedom, it's Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness (In that order of Precedence). It's God given, unalienable. All else is a second rate substitute that will never be acceptable.

Great video! Thanks for posting LRRPF52.

[Klem]

Lighten-up guys, or to put it in perspective, Happy Australia Day (26th Jan).

I don't believe in God, the sky fairies, or single definitions spouted as mantra. Whether it be a little Red Book, a Koran or a Bible it is all just cultural belief systems. It is Extreme monotheism of any belief system that causes friction, meaning the more you believe your belief-system is supreme ('God given') the less tolerant and pluralistic you become.

I would also respectfully remind you this is an international gun forum about a calibre that was half designed in Finland, with a marketing logo co-opting a Scandinavian mythical creature. And that Brownells and Smith & Wesson marketing departments spent money creating this video for reasons other than altruism.

By all means celebrate what it means to be American on an international gun forum, bearing in mind members like me then have to sift past the rhetoric looking for meaningful technical information. From an Australian perspective it is almost amusing that guns are seen over your way as proxy for a belief system. To us they are just an interesting but meaningless tool - for sport and animal husbandry.

[LRRPF52]

I moved this to the 2A section, which is a fundamental protection in the US Constitution. The Founding Fathers claim inspiration from God when fighting for these liberties against tyranny, and America is palpably a freer Nation than any I have traveled to, and that includes 30 countries that I have been to around the world, ranging from North America and Central America, to Europe, to Asia, and the Middle East.

No nation that I know of has its foundational documents built on the individual liberty of each citizen, recognizing a God-given right to exist freely on their own and in their own pursuit of life. Every other nation uses some type of collective construct, where the good of the whole of society is used an an excuse for a few to rule over their fellow men as lords, rather than peers.

Many of our own representatives in government seek the same status as their foreign counterparts, but we have significant obstacles in the way, the 2nd Amendment being one of the biggest ones.

If the Spooners had returned home as Tier 1 combat veterans in most other nations, they could be arrested and imprisoned for merely possessing a handgun, like the example we had of an SAS veteran in England.

[montana]

I'm proud of our second amendment



This is the result of a nation not having a second amendment. By the way this is a picture from Australia. I have battled gun banners locally and nationally most of my adult life. We may not all agree about everything on this forum but I would guess we don't have any argument when it comes to gun rights.

[cory]

By all means celebrate what it means to be American on an international gun forum, bearing in mind members like me then have to sift past the rhetoric looking for meaningful technical information. From an Australian perspective it is almost amusing that guns are seen over your way as proxy for a belief system. To us they are just an interesting but meaningless tool - for sport and animal husbandry.

That's just it. To you(those outside of America) and the sheep in this country, guns are just a tool for hunting or murder.

To those of us who understand the cost and value of Freedom, our guns are everything. Without them there is no Freedom.

An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

[Klem]

Arguing about gun ownership on a gun forum is one thing. Tying it to religion is another. By all means believe in 'God' and your country, but don't get upset if I yawn loudly and glaze-over while you proselytise. And if you don't get too worked up with my disdain at your arrogance then I promise not to spout the belief systems in my country as if they are an exemplar of living. 'Founding Fathers' (did they all have kids?), Religious deities handing-out rights to humans...[Yawn]. The legislated freedom to carry (certain types of) gun because there is less communal trust in your own government after a civil war...In an individualistic society that celebrates the rights of individuals over the group.

While I own several I don't feel the need to carry a gun for protection where I live. Yet I am careful and respectful enough not to suggest my country is better than anyone else's. It's just a different way a society has chosen to live.

[montana]

Klem, the key word is choice. A nation that enforces the collective is another word for tyranny because choice is absent. If you believe in the religion of atheism then by all means you have the individual right to but only when the individual is allowed choice. Try that choice in a country where the individual is not important and you could have your head sawed off. Division of power is the back bone of this nation. When individuals try to enforce the collective here don't be surprised if you get resistances. When one has respect for others one has respect for the individual. If you choose not to carry a gun then that is an individuals choice. If you are not allowed to carry a gun then you are not free but a subject to other people who made that decision for you weather it was in your best interest or not. If those in power can give an individual security then they can also take it away. This applies to all nations not just ours. History proves my point.

[Klem]

Montana, you are right on the money.

There are places on the planet I do not want to visit let alone live. Similarly, I do not want those people to come there, by choice, and think they can change the freedoms by which I live by. Especially not by violence. When in Rome...

Here in Oz suppressors are restricted to the point of being demonised by the authorities. Possession of one will get you arrested, your guns confiscated, fined and a criminal record. Over in New Zealand, a country with a very similar provenance suppressors are perfectly legal. You don't need a licence to own one and anyone can purchase, even tourists. As I understand it in the US you need to apply to your government, a waiting period and a $200 Tax Stamp. So, somewhere in between New Zealand and Australia where choice and freedom of suppressor ownership is concerned.

In 2003 I worked for a time in the Middle East. My de-facto wife was not going to be recognised by the locals unless I was 'married' and they insisted I profess to a religion. Any religion, but not atheism. So we went through the motions and I professed to being religious on paper. Wasn't a threat to saw off my head but pressure to do something against my belief system none-the-less. Their place, their rules, my choice.

My definition of tyranny goes beyond national restrictions. It includes evil intent. Even a dictatorship can be benevolent, although I accept they often aren't. Power corrupts...

If our government lifted all restrictions on firearm ownership here I don't think I'd be comfortable with the inevitable abuse by those who do not have a moral compass. But nor am I happy with the degree of restriction I am currently under, thanks to nutters who occasionally misuse guns. Would be great if there was a foolproof moral test that could be applied at birth. But the banners would then claim the baddies will simply steal guns from the goodies (a current argument here).

And so it goes.

[Klem]

Hey, I have got an automatic Thumbs Down at the top of the previous post...A mechanism to restrict freedom of speech perhaps? How ironic in this thread.

[NugginFutz]

Hey, I have got an automatic Thumbs Down at the top of the previous post...A mechanism to restrict freedom of speech perhaps? How ironic in this thread.

The Icons are self-inflicted, Klem. Nothing automatic about them, as far as I know. Easily removed or modified, if you care to edit your post.