6.5 variation differences

[Toscano]

I'm starting to get very confused!!! The 6.5 Grendel was the original AR platform chamber. Correct? What are the differences between the various other 6.5's? They all claim to use and accomodate 6.5 Grendel brass. There is a regular alphabet of them...264LBC; 6.5 SAOD; 6.5 CSS and I'm sure there are others. So how do these three differ from the Grendel? Help!!

[Bwild97]

Neck diameter, and that is it. 6.5 Grendel SAAMI spec is a .300" neck while the others are anywhere from .292 - .297. The concern with these neck diameters is where the shoulder meets the neck, the smaller diameters have a neck/shoulder junction that is slightly forward of a SAAMI spec chamber. The tighter chambers could also cause chambering issues with SAAMI spec ammo. Producers of these tighter neck dimension swear that their diameter of neck is the best "because it is more accurate and eliminates loss of brass do to split necks"

I have a batch of Hornady 6.5 Grendel brass with 11 reloads on them and not one has had a split neck due to my SAAMI Chamber, I have not lost one single piece of brass (out of 750 cases) to a split neck. That claim is absolutely bullshit. As to the increase in accuracy I can not attest, I do not have one of these variant chambers.

Oh I almost forgot a biggie, Grendel variant producers will also use a .223 bolt opened up to the Grendel rim diameter with a bolt face depth of .125" instead of the appropriate .136". Using a bolt face depth of .125" moves the cartridge forward, the Grendel rim is thicker than the .223 rim and that could cause extraction issues if the extractor is not modified to accommodate this extra thickness, that in turn could cause extractors to break. Again my SAAMI spec chamber and components have about 3,750 rounds and not one issue with any of these.

[Drifter]

Reference this link to a previous thread:

The Grendel and its variations


Also, here's a useful search engine for this website:

https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=016368947416500061353:paqd_0xcu1o&hl=en

[rickOshay]

There is also a great explanation of each variant along with the SAAMI chamber drawing in the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook.

[XcountryRider]

At one time the Grendel was trade marked and not SAAMI so others would slightly modify the round to get in the Grendel game without paying Alexander Arms royalties. My 2 cents.

[JASmith]

There is also a great explanation of each variant along with the SAAMI chamber drawing in the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook.

See http://shootersnotes.com/articles/6-...ding-handbook/, www.AR15Buildbox.com, or http://www.shopalexanderarms.com/Bra..._Volume_1.html for more info.

[LRRPF52]

At one time the Grendel was trade marked and not SAAMI so others would slightly modify the round to get in the Grendel game without paying Alexander Arms royalties. My 2 cents.

I used to believe that, and didn't really think it was an issue. Then I learned there were no royalties, but a very strict requirement to adhere to the chamber drawings and specs. Some people didn't like being told to adhere to a strict set of standards, so they chose to not chamber in Grendel anymore, and used their own "improvement" of the Grendel chamber. CSS had already been working with a 6.5 PPC with the shoulder blown forward in AR's and bolt guns, specifically for competition, with the fringe benefit of having a great little medium game rifle as well. CSS uses a tighter neck in their chamber.

One company said that their prices would come down now that they don't have to pay royalties to Alexander Arms anymore when Hornady got the Grendel SAAMI-spec'd. Their prices haven't changed, so you can do the math yourself. The Grendel royalty claim was BS, and added unnecessary drama to the marketing of a great caliber.

[LR1955]

I used to believe that, and didn't really think it was an issue. Then I learned there were no royalties, but a very strict requirement to adhere to the chamber drawings and specs. Some people didn't like being told to adhere to a strict set of standards, so they chose to not chamber in Grendel anymore, and used their own "improvement" of the Grendel chamber. CSS had already been working with a 6.5 PPC with the shoulder blown forward in AR's and bolt guns, specifically for competition, with the fringe benefit of having a great little medium game rifle as well. CSS uses a tighter neck in their chamber.

One company said that their prices would come down now that they don't have to pay royalties to Alexander Arms anymore when Hornady got the Grendel SAAMI-spec'd. Their prices haven't changed, so you can do the math yourself. The Grendel royalty claim was BS, and added unnecessary drama to the marketing of a great caliber.

LR52:

Hold on a minute. I distinctly recall Alexander and Bill saying a royalty was charged but the cost was minimal. Absolutely no question in my mind, and both people stated this several times.

I have used barrels that were 'Grendel', CSS, and some that used a Pacific Tool and Die reamer. I used the same sizing die, bumped shoulders the same amount, seated bullets the length that Alexander recommends, and never had a problem with function. This includes using 7.62 X 39 brass and Hornady brass as well as the Lapua brass.

So, I don't believe anyone was cutting chambers differently enough from Alexander's to make a difference in function. They certainly didn't make a difference in sizing the brass. And I do recall very clearly Alexander and Bill saying AA did charge a royalty but that it was not very much. They never said how much so I don't know. The issue was contentious and I am happy it is over.

LR1955

[Tedward]

LR52:

Hold on a minute. I distinctly recall Alexander and Bill saying a royalty was charged but the cost was minimal. Absolutely no question in my mind, and both people stated this several times.

I have used barrels that were 'Grendel', CSS, and some that used a Pacific Tool and Die reamer. I used the same sizing die, bumped shoulders the same amount, seated bullets the length that Alexander recommends, and never had a problem with function. This includes using 7.62 X 39 brass and Hornady brass as well as the Lapua brass.

So, I don't believe anyone was cutting chambers differently enough from Alexander's to make a difference in function. They certainly didn't make a difference in sizing the brass. And I do recall very clearly Alexander and Bill saying AA did charge a royalty but that it was not very much. They never said how much so I don't know. The issue was contentious and I am happy it is over.

LR1955

CSS is a distributor for Lothar Walther and i spoke to Woody on this a few weeks back. A drawn out answer for my simple question because i'm not into all the neck and size stuff yet. He said he worked hand in hand with Bill A. and all in all the end to his comment was the is a .003 or .0003 cut differance. To me, way above my head. If you have time to listen and know what he's saying, give him a call, he apparently is up on the Grendel or sure sounds like it.

Using his Wylde I got from LW yesterday that I got a couple months back, grouping 6 rounds in 1/2" MOA and for me that's unbelievable. Just one small hole when I was done. Going back at it after church today and will be using 1" stickers with 3 round groups. Not a Grendel but I'm waiting on my 20" Grendel from him. ($470 with match bolt) I might sell my AR-Stoner 24" Barrel if it proves as good as I'm hoping.

[JASmith]

...I distinctly recall Alexander and Bill saying a royalty was charged but the cost was minimal. Absolutely no question in my mind, and both people stated this several times...

...and I distinctly remember a post from Bill A. indicating no royalties were charged. I just don't remember how long ago the post was made.

I do know, however, that his primary motivation for the trademark and license arrangement was for assuring that firearms stamped with '6.5 Grendel' were indeed Grendel in all respects. With the SAAMI specs in place, he no longer needed that kind of control and the smart business move was then to abandon the trademark since the SAAMI spec gives the cartridge the uniformity needed.

The 'Grendel Clone' necks are generally tighter than the spec, and and some folks have reported problems with the clones. Remember, the chamber was designed to give a nice combination of superb accuracy and very reliable function. Bill's outstanding insight was in recognizing that neck tolerances play a minor role in assuring alignment when the bullets are seated so the noses just or almost touch the lands on chambering. This approach is counter to conventional wisdom for designing highly accurate cartridges and may have been the underlying cause of what were essentially sour grapes.

A neck must always have a few mils clearance to allow for it to open and release the bullet or we see interesting pressure excursions. This means the neck can never give the same precision in registration that the slip or interference fit one gets with the touching or almost touching the lands. We can do the first in bolt guns and the the Grendel shot groups we routinely see posted in this forum tell us that the second technique seems to work very will in accurate ARs.

You can see a more detailed discussion of why the Grendel chamber is the way it is by reading your copy of the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook.

Back to the royalty question. Royalties are customarily paid as part of a licensing arrangement. I suspect a lot of folks declined to ask 'how much' when they found that they were obliged to follow SAAMI-like standards but complained anyway.

In any event, this is past history, and we are all looking forward to seeing the Grendel move more into a mainstream role in the hunting and shooting world.

[Toscano]

Thank you to everyone who contributed to my enlightment. I'm one who is a believer in not overworking brass when reloading and a long range target shooter so a tighter neck does have some relevence to my decision. Of course that also has to do with what brass I'll be using since there can be a great variance in thickness and thereby affecting neck diameter.

[XcountryRider]

On this thread Saturn claims they were paying a royalty. "The price of the 6.5 Grendel will be lower than our previous regular priced Grendels due to not having a royalty arrangement with Alexander Arms this time around."

[bwaites]

LR52:

Hold on a minute. I distinctly recall Alexander and Bill saying a royalty was charged but the cost was minimal. Absolutely no question in my mind, and both people stated this several times.

I have used barrels that were 'Grendel', CSS, and some that used a Pacific Tool and Die reamer. I used the same sizing die, bumped shoulders the same amount, seated bullets the length that Alexander recommends, and never had a problem with function. This includes using 7.62 X 39 brass and Hornady brass as well as the Lapua brass.

So, I don't believe anyone was cutting chambers differently enough from Alexander's to make a difference in function. They certainly didn't make a difference in sizing the brass. And I do recall very clearly Alexander and Bill saying AA did charge a royalty but that it was not very much. They never said how much so I don't know. The issue was contentious and I am happy it is over.

LR1955

There is some confusion as to what was actually charged. As I recall and understand, there was no royalty per barrel or rifle per se. There were some fees associated with the use of the name, but it was a very minimal cost. Companies that I talked to about it always told me that it wasn't any roadblock at all as far as money was concerned.

I do know that at one point I asked Bill Alexander about it and he told me that in order to protect the Trademark there had to be a license fee, but that it was never on a per barrel or per rifle basis. The agreement was basically a legal document requiring that the builder follow the appropriate manufacturing guidelines, so that a Grendel built by one company was the same as a Grendel built by another company.

AA always used the same .300 neck chamber with compound throat used today. However, CSS requested a "competition" variant with a .295 neck using Lothar Walther barrels. It had a compound throat and the only differences were changes necessary to use that neck and the compound throat. There were not many of those made, they were all made more than 8 years ago, while CSS was still owned by Arne and Bill basically regretted it almost from the beginning, because it meant that there were two different Grendel chambers.